Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #71

Well, I said I was going to be responding to Dr. Novella’s latest comments unless something more interesting came up…and something more interesting, or maybe more immediate…did come up. As I suspected would happen, Dr. Joe Mizzi responded to my last newsletter which featured an exchange between him and one of the readers of this newsletter.

So, I thought I would go ahead and respond to Dr. Joe now, and then get back to Dr. Novella in the future.

Below is Dr. Mizzi’s response in its entirety and then I repeat his response with my comments intermingled among his.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Joe Mizzi

Response to John Martignoni newsletter – Issue #70

It is so sweet of John Martignoni and his disciple, Gary, to publish private correspondence without permission.

John’s criticism is like the common cold – recurrent but not a serious malady. The accusations he directs against me reflect his own problem (readers can judge for themselves who is misrepresenting whom in our online debate).

In newsletter #70, John misses the point of my letter, “The Futile Faith of Some Catholics”. Did I ever claim that we are completely passive in salvation? On the contrary I emphasized that we are justified by faith, rather than by the merits of personal works, as the Bible so clearly teaches (Romans 4:5). Our personal act of faith is not in dispute. Indeed I have also reiterated the absolute necessity of good works in the lives of the justified.

But John imagines that since we do something, salvation is ultimately hinges on ourselves rather than on God. He cannot see that God chose his people before his people choose Him; that faith itself, by which we are justified, is itself the gift of grace. Our sin-paralysed hands can never receive the gift of salvation unless first God’s restores our hands and heart. (In my response to Gary, which John did not publish, I wrote: “Read the Scripture and you’ll find the answer. Did Jesus say, “You are not my sheep because you do not believe” or did he say “You do not believe because you are not my sheep” As much as we would like to make our eternal destiny the choice of our so-called ‘free’ will; the plain truth is that our destiny is in the hands of him who is before us, and chose some to be his sheep and others not to. Our response follows his choice, not the other way around.)

John also confuses what the Bible clearly distinguishes. He says that “faith” is a “work”. He writes: “… the very act of believing is, in and of itself, a work (which is actually what it says in Scripture – John 6:27-29).”

John 6 offers no support to the Catholic concept of meritorious-works; on the contrary the Lord Jesus Christ directs his audience to that one work of God in us – believing in Jesus the Messiah – that renounces any claim to personal merit.

The distinction between faith and works is crystal clear in Ephesians 2:8,9. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

If for the sake of argument we suppose that “faith” is a “work” as John would have us believe; we end up forcing Paul into an absurd contradiction: “saved, through work…not by works”! But the apostle Paul means no such thing; on the contrary he declares that we’re saved “through faith” and immediately clarifies his statement by excluding works as the means of salvation - “not of works”!

Dear reader, John says that faith cannot justify (save) us; the Bible says the very opposite. Are you saved by grace through faith and apart from your works?

Sincerely,

Joe Mizzi

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Joe Mizzi

Response to John Martignoni newsletter – Issue #70

It is so sweet of John Martignoni and his disciple, Gary, to publish private correspondence without permission.

John Martignoni

If you get real still, in a quiet place, you can hear the melancholy notes of a violin, floating over the waves from Malta. Sorry, but Joe regularly sends his Church of the Maltese Doctor emails to my readers who have sent him emails in the past. He is well aware that they in turn share those emails with me. And, he is obviously well aware of what might happen with emails that I receive from folks. Joe, if you wish to have your correspondence with my readers remain just between you and them, make sure they have agreed to that condition before you send your email to them.

Joe Mizzi

John’s criticism is like the common cold – recurrent but not a serious malady. The accusations he directs against me reflect his own problem (readers can judge for themselves who is misrepresenting whom in our online debate).

John Martignoni

I suppose that, in some respects, I am like the common cold to Joe. In fact, I suppose, in the same sense, the Catholic Faith is like the common cold to him – in spite of all of his knowledge and learning and training – he is basically ignorant of it.

Joe Mizzi

In newsletter #70, John misses the point of my letter, “The Futile Faith of Some Catholics”. Did I ever claim that we are completely passive in salvation? On the contrary I emphasized that we are justified by faith, rather than by the merits of personal works, as the Bible so clearly teaches (Romans 4:5). Our personal act of faith is not in dispute. Indeed I have also reiterated the absolute necessity of good works in the lives of the justified.

John Martignoni

I understand very well what Joe is saying in his letter. Joe refuses to understand what Catholics teach. He says that Catholics teach one is justified by the merits of their own personal works. I will hold up the example of infant baptism for Joe to respond to. We believe, as Martin Luther did, that an infant is justified (born again) through the Sacrament of Baptism. That infant cannot do a single work…that infant cannot make an act of faith. In other words, we believe that infant is justified by God’s grace, alone. Please tell me, Joe, how that fits in with your teaching that Catholics believe they are justified by the merits of their own personal works, when Catholics teach that babies, who cannot do any works, are justified through Baptism?

Joe Mizzi

But John imagines that since we do something, salvation is ultimately hinges on ourselves rather than on God. He cannot see that God chose his people before his people choose Him; that faith itself, by which we are justified, is itself the gift of grace. Our sin-paralysed hands can never receive the gift of salvation unless first God’s restores our hands and heart. (In my response to Gary, which John did not publish, I wrote: “Read the Scripture and you’ll find the answer. Did Jesus say, “You are not my sheep because you do not believe” or did he say “You do not believe because you are not my sheep” As much as we would like to make our eternal destiny the choice of our so-called ‘free’ will; the plain truth is that our destiny is in the hands of him who is before us, and chose some to be his sheep and others not to. Our response follows his choice, not the other way around.)

John Martignoni

First of all, notice that Joe doesn’t answer Gary’s question (as given in last week’s issue) directly. The question was basically: What is the difference between the saved and the unsaved, is it something the saved did and the unsaved didn’t do, or is it something that Jesus did or didn’t do? Notice, that Joe didn’t answer directly; however, Joe seems to be saying it is something Jesus did. In other words, Joe appears to be saying (although I bet he’ll try to wiggle out of it somehow) that Jesus basically created some people for Heaven and created others for Hell, and that no one really has a choice in the matter. That free will has no role in our salvation whatsoever.

In other words, Joe seems to be going the strict double predestination route here. To respond to what Joe says, I would first offer this quote from one of the saints – I think it was St. Augustine, but I’m not absolutely sure: “God, Who created us without our permission, will not save us without our permission.” Joe is taking an either-or position on this, as so many Protestants take on so many issues – when actually this is a both-and proposition. In other words, God doesn’t save us all by Himself. He needs our cooperation, because He has indeed given us free will. It is not either all God or all me – it is both God and me.

God will not impose His will on us. This is very clear from Scripture. In Luke 7:30, we see that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected God’s will for themselves, because they were not baptized by John. If it was God’s will that they be baptized by John, yet they weren’t baptized by John, how can Joe say that we don’t have free will? How could they reject God’s purpose for them, if God’s will overrides our free will? Or, as Joe seems to be saying, if we have no free will? This verse doesn’t quite fit in with what Joe has said.

Another Scripture verse that seems quite at odds with what Joe says above is 1 Tim 2:4, which states: “[God our Savior] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” God wants all men to be saved…so saith God through Scripture. Yet Joe is saying that God “chose” only certain people to give His grace to…the grace that is necessary to be saved. In other words, 1 Tim 2:4 doesn’t seem to fit into Joe’s theology either. I mean, how is it that God can want all men to be saved, but then only gives certain men the grace necessary to be saved? Is that not a contradiction? Is it not rather the case that God does indeed give all men the grace necessary for salvation, since He is a just and merciful God and does indeed want all men to be saved, but that many men do not cooperate with that grace…reject that grace…and end up not being saved?

Joe Mizzi

John also confuses what the Bible clearly distinguishes. He says that “faith” is a “work”. He writes: “… the very act of believing is, in and of itself, a work (which is actually what it says in Scripture – John 6:27-29).”

John 6 offers no support to the Catholic concept of meritorious-works; on the contrary the Lord Jesus Christ directs his audience to that one work of God in us – believing in Jesus the Messiah – that renounces any claim to personal merit.

John Martignoni

In John 6:27-29, Jesus first tells His listeners…this is a command from God, now…that they should “LABOR for the food which endures to eternal life.” First question: Is laboring an act of faith, or a work? Answer: it’s a work. Next in this passage, the people say, “What must WE DO to be doing the works of God?” Second question: Is this something the people are going to do, or is it something God is going to do? Answer: it is both-and, not either-or. It is a work of God, that God does through the people, but the people actively participate in this work. Next, Jesus says: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.” Question: Is believing a work? Answer: Indeed it is…at least, according to the Bible. It is a work of God, but a work that God does through the people. Having faith…believing…is a work that each individual does, by God’s grace. They do it by the grace of God, but they indeed do it. They cooperate with God’s grace in their lives in order to have faith. Just as they cooperate with God’s grace in their lives to do any “work of God”…to do any of the works that God has “prepared” for us that “we should walk in them,” (Eph 2:10).

Joe Mizzi

The distinction between faith and works is crystal clear in Ephesians 2:8,9. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

John Martignoni

I agree 100% with that verse of the Bible. I do not, however, agree with what Joe sadly thinks that verse means…in other words, I do not agree with Joe’s fallible interpretation of that verse. For more on this, see the “Debates” page on my website (www.biblechristiansociety.com) or see Issue #56 on the “Newsletter” page of the website.

Joe Mizzi

If for the sake of argument we suppose that “faith” is a “work” as John would have us believe; we end up forcing Paul into an absurd contradiction: “saved, through work…not by works”! But the apostle Paul means no such thing; on the contrary he declares that we’re saved “through faith” and immediately clarifies his statement by excluding works as the means of salvation — “not of works”!

John Martignoni

Hey, Joe, I’m just showing you what the Bible says. It very clearly says, as I just pointed out, that believing is a work of God, does it not? A work of God that we do with God. Do you agree that believing is a “work” of God, done through us, or not? Now, in your confused system of theology, admitting to that might force Paul into an “absurd contradiction,” but it does no such thing in my system of theology. We have been saved “through [a work of God] faith…not because of works, lest any man should boast.” That is perfectly consistent with Catholic belief. Again, it says saved “through” faith. If you believe that your faith, in and of itself, has saved you, then you don’t believe God’s grace has saved you. As Catholics, we believe we are initially justified by God’s grace through Baptism. We come to Baptism because of faith, but it is not the faith itself that justifies us…it is God’s grace alone that justifies us, by being born again of water and the Holy Spirit through Baptism. “Baptism…now saves you,” (1 Peter 3:21).

For what might be the 50th time, I will say again to the Pope of the Church of the Maltese Doctor: Catholics do not believe and do not teach that we are justified by our works. Again, I hold out the example of infant baptism. However, we believe that we do indeed “abide” in Christ by bearing good fruit, and that we must abide in Christ in order to be saved, as the Bible clearly tells us. But, just like the act of having faith, the act of working is by God’s grace…it is God working in us and through us for His good pleasure.

Let’s look at John 15:1-6 to back this up. In these verses, we see that Jesus is the vine, and that we are the branches. Question #1 for Joe: Are the branches Christians? If so, are they saved? If they’re not Christians, how is it they are joined to Christ?

Next, please keep in mind that branches of a vine become branches not because of anything they do, but completely and totally because of the vine. Now, what does it then say in this passage? It says that if the branches (“every branch of Mine”) do not bear good fruit, they are cut off from the vine, wither, and are thrown into the fire to be burned – a very clear reference to Hell. 2nd question for Joe, basically the same question Gary B. asked of him: What is the difference between the branches that bear good fruit and those that don’t – is it the vine, or is it the branches themselves? Notice that the passage says if the branches do not bear fruit, it doesn’t say that the vine will cause some branches to bear fruit and others not to bear fruit.

Joe’s theology has all kinds of problems with this passage, because it is obvious that one cannot be joined to the vine (Jesus Christ) if one is not Christian. Yet, the branches can’t be Christians in Joe’s theology, because some of them get cut off and thrown into the fire. Joe doesn’t believe that’s possible. Furthermore, it is obvious that the vine is the same to all the branches…Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Yet, some of the branches bear fruit and some don’t. This, again, does not fit with Joe’s theology. Is the vine different to one branch than it is to another? If, “yes,” then are you saying that Jesus purposefully denies His grace to some of the branches because He wants them to go to Hell? He wants them to be cut off, to wither, and to be burned? Again, how does that fit with 1 Tim 2:4?

So, Joe, how does the fact that there are folks who are branches of the vine at one point, and then at another point they aren’t branches of the vine, fit into your theology of once saved, always saved? Could you explain these verses in light of your belief in eternal security?

Folks, these verses from John 15:1-6, fit perfectly with the Catholic belief that we do not become branches of the vine (become justified) because of anything that we do (faith or works), but that we remain branches of the vine (abide in Christ) because of what we do (producing good fruit by faith and works – “faith working through love” – Gal 5:6), by the grace of God. God, the vine, working in us and through us.

And, Joe, while you’re explaining your take on John 15:1-6, could you also explain the parable of the Prodigal Son in light of your belief in once saved always saved? I mean, we see the father in the parable (Luke 15:11-32), who represents God the Father, saying of the prodigal son that he was dead and is now alive again. To be alive “again,” means that you must first be alive, then die, then be alive once more. Relating this to salvation, if one is alive, he is saved, right? And, if one is dead, he’s not saved, right? And, if once one is alive, he can never die, then it can never be said of the Christian that he is alive “again”, can it? At least, not in once saved always saved theology. But, here the prodigal son, representing all of us, is alive, then dead, then alive again. He is saved, unsaved, saved again. Could you please explain that, Joe?

Joe Mizzi

Dear reader, John says that faith cannot justify (save) us; the Bible says the very opposite. Are you saved by grace through faith and apart from your works?

John Martignoni

Once again Joe tries to distort and mislead. We are saved – or justified – through faith…Amen! But, it is not faith in and of itself that justifies us…it is God’s grace that justifies us. Joe, do you dispute that? Question for Joe: How is it you are actually justified…does your faith justify you, or does God’s grace justify you? Does the fact that you have faith, automatically mean that God owes you His grace?

In Conclusion

Well, let’s see if the good doctor can explain John 15:1-6 and the parable of the Prodigal Son to us in clear, direct, and unambiguous once saved always saved language. Anyone want to give odds on that? And, what about that infant baptism thing and Catholic belief? How does that square with the falsehoods Joe is teaching about the Catholic Faith? I can’t wait to find out.

I hope all of you have (or had) a good weekend!

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