A Conversation With A Baptist Minister - Apologetics for the Masses #542

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Topic

A conversation with a Baptist Minister.

General Comments

Hey folks,

A few things:

1) For those of you who have been wondering as to whether or not the war with Iran can be considered a "just war" under the "Just War" doctrine of the Catholic Church, here's an article in Catholic World Report that, while I don't agree with 100% of what the author said, I thought that, overall, it did a pretty good job of analyzing the just war question: https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2026/04/14/is-the-war-in-iran-just/

2) Also, in regard to the flare up between Trump and Pope Leo, I thought this was a very good article on that topic: https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/trump-is-not-of-our-tribe

3) So far, I've mailed out close to 10,000 of the Roman (Catholic) Road to Salvation tracts around the Birmingham area. Getting ready to send out another 10,000 or so to homes and businesses (mostly homes) over the next several weeks. Please pray that seeds of Catholic truth will be planted in the hearts and minds of those whose mailboxes they drop into.

4) Finally, here's some information on the Totus Tuus Family Conference, which is sponsored by The Apostolate for Family Consecration, that I'll be speaking at on Friday, October 9th:

Where: At the AFC's Catholic Familyland property in Bloomingdale, OH (20 minutes west of Steubenville, OH).
Who Can Attend: The entire family with talks for mom and dad and breakout ministry sessions for ages 4-12, 13-14, 15-17, 18-21 and 22-30.
Keynote speakers: John Martignoni, Theologian Dr. Ralph Martin, and Author Kevin Wells.
Other adult break-out speakers: Deacon Keith Fournier, Katrina Zeno, and Mary and Christi Tripodi
The Conference includes: Mass, Confession, Divine Mercy Chaplet, Candlelight Rosary Procession to the Holy family Prayer Site, great food, fellowship, and MORE!

For more info or to register: https://afc.org/totus-tuus/

By the way, if you've never been to Catholic Familyland, you need to look into it...especially if you have young kids and teens. My family...my kids...loved it! A great place to go for a little summer rest and relaxation and spiritual nourishment.

Introduction

This week I get into a conversation with a Baptist Pastor. He contacted me out of the blue through Facebook. I'm not going to mention his name because, unlike the guys featured in the last two newsletters who were totally off the rails, this guy appears to honestly be searching for truth...at least, sort of. And, he has handled the conversation like an adult. So, I'll just identify him as "Baptist Pastor".

Anyway, the conversation with him is ongoing and I have found it to be rather interesting and refreshing. Interesting in how he responds to my questions, and refreshing in that he actually offers, for the most part, direct answers to direct questions. A rarity amongst the thousands of Protestants I've dealt with in the last 28 years. And, I think this conversation will be useful in showing how, even those of the Protestant persuasion who are thoughtful, decent, and open to hearing - and responding to - your arguments and questions (as opposed to the crazed anti-Catholics), still serve as examples of how Protestantism is, at its core, fundamentally in opposition to Jesus' prayer for unity amongst His followers that we find in John 17:20-23. And this conversation will also show, as I have said for many years, how easy it is, with just one or two questions, to throw a monkey wrench into the machinery of Protestant theology.

The conversation will be spread out over at least 3 or 4 newsletters. I hope you enjoy it...

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Baptist Pastor
Hey John. I am a Christian that has been Evangelical my whole life and I am an ordained Baptist pastor. I am presently on a genuine journey to discover what I believe about ecclesiology. I came across your book  [one of my Blue Collar books, but I'm not sure which one] with an open mind but I have to confess: I am about a third way through and struggling to finish it. In the intro you state that you are trying to evangelize to Protestants. To be blunt I don't know how anyone can hear good news by reading your book. Your tone is very abrasive and condescending. If I am having a hard time looking past your tone to consider your arguments as someone who is pursuing truth beyond my religious background. I cannot imagine the impossibility of someone who is reading your book with a pessimistic background. I would encourage you to repent of your arrogance. You seem like an intelligent individual but not like someone who I could have a good faith conversation with.

John Martignoni
Well, to be just as blunt, Pastor, I find your message to be rather arrogant and judgmental. But that's okay, compared to some, your comments are rather mild. I've heard much worse. I do find it interesting, though, that instead of trying to tackle the arguments made in the book, you have chosen rather to attack me, personally. I find that happens a lot with Baptists and Evangelicals. I attack the logic and the biblical supports (as they see them) for their beliefs, and they launch personal attacks on me in return.

And I always find it interesting when people attack the "tone" of my writing, without knowing anything about me. I think one's interpretation of the "tone" of the written word says more about them than it does the author, don't you? The "tone" is blunt and straightforward, to be sure, however, I go after ideas, not people. You, however, have chosen not to do the same, Pastor.

I know why you're "struggling to finish it" - and, to be blunt, it has nothing to do with the tone. The book is exposing you to arguments and questions you have never thought about before, and it is a bit unsettling at some interior level. So, instead of trying to figure out exactly why it unsettles you, instead of trying to respond to the arguments put forth and the questions asked, you blame my "tone" for your uneasiness. Perfectly understandable. The book is about truth. And, quite often, the truth is hard to accept.

So, if you would like to respond to any of the particular questions I ask, or arguments I make, in the book, on any given topic, I would be happy to entertain your counter-arguments and/or questions. If you would like, instead, to simply attack me on a personal level...well, maybe ask yourself why that is your preferred mode of response?

What topic should we start on? I propose two - one Baptist belief and one Catholic.

1) Most Baptists believe in Once Saved Always Saved. So, I wager, that with just two questions, I can - from the Bible - shake the foundation of that belief. Here's the first question of the two: In John 15:1-6, Jesus says He is the true vine. Are the branches of the vine, the branches attached to the vine of Christ, believers...yes or no?

I look forward to your answers. Also, feel free to ask me any questions about Catholic beliefs you would like. And, don't worry, nothing you ask me or say to me can offend me.

In Christ,

John Martignoni

Strategy
What I'm doing here is essentially testing him as to whether he is worth spending my time on, or if going round with him would be a complete waste of time. Right off the bat, not knowing anything about me, personally, he comes at me with both barrels blazing. That was a pretty strong opening from him. So, if he wants to be "blunt," well, I can be blunt, too. I just came right back at him and called him out, not on his "tone," but on his actual accusations. You're a Baptist pastor and you introduce yourself to someone by calling them arrogant and abrasive and condescending and accusing them of not operating in good faith, and you got all of that from reading my book? Really? A wee bit judgmental are we? Don't let folks get away with doing things like that.

So, again, I called him out on it to see how he would respond to a bit of a verbal punch in the nose. And I wanted him to know that what he said to me really didn't bother me at all. Not gonna hurt my feelings no matter what you say. Remember: Never take offense. When someone questions or attacks the Faith, or you, it's just God opening a door for you to maybe insert a little truth into that person's life. Now, will what I said to him cause him to escalate, or to actually think? If he escalates, then he's probably not worth spending too much time on. But, if instead, he stops and thinks, well now, that might be someone I can have a decent conversation with.

Then I move on from his personal attack by responding to his "struggle" with my book and turned that around on him as well. Okay, you're reading the arguments and questions in my book, and how do you respond to them? You say you're "struggling" with them. Well, do you respond by offering counter-arguments? Do you respond by showing where my arguments were flawed or my questions were not logical? No! You respond by attacking me. Which tells me, you don't really have any answers or counter arguments. So, I'm going to challenge you by saying you're not "struggling" with them because of my "tone," you're struggling with them because you don't know how to respond to them. And, in order to quiet the alarm bells that are going off deep down in your soul as you read the arguments for the Catholic Faith and/or against the Protestant faith, you have to create an internal diversion by launching ad hominem attacks. The guys I featured in the last 2 newsletters essentially did the same thing. Challenging him to try and get him to engage.

Next step, I basically shrug all of that off, ignore his concern that he could not have a "good faith conversation" with me, and let him know that I would be happy to entertain any questions or arguments he wants to send my way. And, oh, by the way, I'll start the conversation with a couple of questions for you. And I hit him with two of my favorite conversation starters - one on Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) from John 15:1-6, and one on the Eucharist from John 6:51. If you've never used either of those questions in your conversations with Protestants, I highly recommend you try them out. You'll see why as this conversation continues.

So, if someone takes a swing at you, don't be afraid to give them a little verbal punch in the nose. After which you act like it's no big deal and move on. And, remember, ask questions! Always ask questions!

Baptist Pastor
I will only answer if you agree to a civil discussion where the goal is not "aha! Gotcha" moments but for the edification of the saints. I am continuing to read your book in good faith despite the fact that I still have not sensed you writing it in good faith. I know nothing about you so I can only assume that you have a history of Protestants not responding to you in good faith. I do not intend on that being the foundation of our conversations.

John Martignoni
I find it a bit humorous, Pastor, that here you are - a Baptist pastor - and out of the blue you send me an email which is, if you're being honest with yourself, a measure or two below the level of "civil". Yet, now, you will agree to dialogue with me only if I agree to a "civil" discussion. And, even as you ask me to agree to a civil discussion, you judge my heart...saying that I did not write my book in good faith.

This is what I will say, Pastor - I am direct with people, and I am blunt with people. I do that out of respect for them. I always assume that an adult Christian is capable of handling conversation that is direct and to the point. I mean, if Jesus didn't take offense when they crucified Him, then I assume Christians will not take offense when they are in a discussion with someone who is disagreeing with them and who is going to argue that their positions are untenable from logic and/or Scripture.

Regarding what you call "aha! Gotcha" moments, that is not the goal of anything I do. My goal is to plant seeds. My goal is to make the other person think about what they believe, and why they believe it, as much - or more - as they are trying to make me think about what I believe and why I believe it. The goal is to answer Pilate's question: "What is truth?" And I generally do that by asking questions. I ask questions for 2 reasons: 1) To make sure I understand exactly what the other person believes and why they believe it. I don't want to assume that I know something about another person's beliefs that I haven't heard directly from them or from some official source of their faith tradition; and 2) To make the other person think.

Now, regarding my history with Protestants, I have indeed had a number of Protestants I've dealt with who have not dealt with me in good faith. Those who want to preach but do not want to listen. Those who want to tell me what I believe and why as opposed to asking me what I believe and why. I couldn't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm going to Hell, that I am on the side of Satan, that I do not have the Holy Spirit in me, that I know nothing of Jesus and the Bible, as well as being called all sorts of nasty names. Well, all in a day's work...

So, to sum up. I am blunt and to the point. I ask very pointed questions. My goal is to come to the knowledge of the truth. I am open to being told I'm wrong. But, you will have to defend your claim. Also, I tell people, if you can show me where the Catholic Church is wrong on any one - just one - of its doctrines or moral teachings, I will no longer be Catholic.

So, if you're up for it, you can either start with one or both of my previous questions, which I repeat below, or hit me with your own questions or arguments:

1) Most Baptists believe in Once Saved Always Saved. So, I wager, that with just two questions, I can - from the Bible - shake the foundation of that belief. Here's the first question of the two: In John 15:1-6, Jesus says He is the true vine. Are the branches of the vine, the branches attached to the vine of Christ, believers...yes or no?2) In John 6:51-59, Jesus says we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life. Catholics believe He is speaking literally, Baptists believe He is speaking symbolically. Here's the first question: In John 6:51, Jesus says: "...and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." When did Jesus give His flesh for the life of the world?

2) In John 6:51-59, Jesus says we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life. Catholics believe He is speaking literally, Baptists believe He is speaking symbolically. Here's the first question: In John 6:51, Jesus says: "...and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." When did Jesus give His flesh for the life of the world?

Strategy
Well, he didn't escalate. Looks like he's up for a conversation. But, I want to make sure he understands, up front, that I am blunt and to the point, but that that is my way of showing respect to the other person. I am not going to use a lot of flowery language and round about ways of talking, and I surely won't be using any smiley face emojis.

So, I gave direct responses to his concerns, and then I simply repeated my two questions to see if I could get direct answers from him in response. And, I also let him know that he has a very low bar (so it seems) to get over in order to convert me - just prove one Catholic doctrine...just one!...to be wrong and I will no longer be Catholic. And I mean that.

Baptist Pastor
I apologize if I treated you in an uncivil manner. I really am seeking truth and began reading your book to see things from a Catholic perspective. I will no longer judge whether or not you wrote it in good faith. you have stated that it was written in good faith so I will take our conversations as being in good faith until it is proven otherwise.

I can promise you there will be no questioning of your salvation based on you being a Catholic. My desire is to truly learn more from each other as we seek truth. So...let's see how it goes.

I do believe in once saved always saved. [Regarding your questions:]

1) Yes, I do believe that the branches of the vine on John 15 are believers. Jesus commands believers to abide in Him. He is the source of life and God alone sustains us.

2) As far as I am aware all Christians would state that Jesus gave His flesh for the life of the world on the cross.

John Martignoni
Regarding my two questions. First, thank you for your answers - direct and to the point. Much appreciated.

1) Given that you agree that the branches of the vine are believers, how is it they are cut off from the vine (Christ) and thrown into the fire (Hell) for not producing fruit (good works) if Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is true?

2) If the bread that Jesus is going to give us to eat - which will enable us to live forever - is the flesh that He will give for the life of the world, and you agree that He gave His flesh for the life of the world on the Cross, then my next question is: Was His flesh that hung on the Cross real...or symbolic?

Strategy
Way better than I would have believed! Direct and succinct answers to my questions. And an apology! And no condemning me to Hell. Wow! A rare thing indeed from a Protestant. And his answers are absolutely correct - the branches of the vine that is Jesus, have to be believers. They have to be! In Protestant theology, one cannot become a member of the Body of Christ...a branch of the vine that is Christ...unless one accepts Jesus into his heart as his personal Lord and Savior. So, yes, the branches are believers.

And, of course it was on the Cross that Jesus gave His flesh for the life of the world. That is the answer I get 100% of the time I have asked that question, and I have asked it dozens and dozens of times - probably into the hundreds of times.

Regarding my two original questions, they're what I call "setup" questions...as in setting the stage. These two follow-up questions are what I call "exposing the dilemma" questions. Not "creating" the dilemma - I don't "create" anything - I simply expose the dilemma that exists within the foundations of Protestantism itself vis-a-vis the Word of God. If OSAS is indeed true, then John 15:1-6 is nonsense. Believers can't be cut off from the vine for not producing fruit...or for any other reason...if OSAS is true. So, either OSAS is true, or John 15:1-6 is true - it can't be both.

And, as to John 6:51, if that verse is referring to the actual flesh of Christ that hung on the Cross, as the Protestants agree that it is, then when you plug that fact back into John 6:51, what the verse is saying is that the bread Jesus wants us to eat in order to live forever is, according to the Protestants, the actual flesh of Jesus that was nailed to the Cross. John 6:51, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread [My real flesh that was nailed to the Cross for the life of the world], he will live forever..." There is no symbolic rendering of His flesh here. What this also means is that John 6:52-58 ("Eat My flesh; drink My blood" repeated multiple times), is talking about the actual flesh of Jesus that was nailed to the Cross - and, by extension, the actual blood of Jesus that was shed on the Cross - and is not symbolically referring to "reading the Scriptures" or "accepting Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior" or any other such ridiculous "symbolic" rendering of these verses.

Thus the "dilemma" for the Protestant. To answer those questions one way, leads to a denial of the clear meaning of Scripture; but, to answer another way, leads to the denial of a tenet of Protestant theology. What is one to do? We'll find out below.

Baptist Pastor
1). I don't believe that John is stating that Christians are eternally cut off from the vine. Nor does Catholic Bible scholar Francis J. Maloney, S.D.B.. in Maloney's commentary on John he states that "thrown into the fire and burned" is best explained by making the link with everyday practice. Instead he states that it refers to the practice of dry wood being cut off from the vine. I believe it refers to the fact that all Christ followers have dry seasons in their lives where they are not bearing fruit in their lives due to allowing sin to overcome them temporarily. This removal of dead wood and pruning is to regain the potential for fruit bearing again. The New Testament is full of references that we are to die to ourselves and pick up our cross daily. Throughout our lives we will need to be pruned over and over again until Christ returns and makes us perfect in Him.

Good hermeneutics requires us to look at all of Scripture to ensure that we are interpreting it correctly. There are a handful of passages in Scripture that when looked at in isolation make it seem that losing your salvation is possible. However, from my studies I am led to see a message of Christ ensuring believers that He has sealed our salvation with the Holy Spirit and that there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. It is through this lens that I look at John 1 which leads me to believe that it is a temporary pruning for the sake of restoring the ability to beat fruit.

2. One of my struggles with your book was I felt like your goal was unattainable. You aspired to prove all Protestants wrong. I believe you briefly touch on this point in the book but Protestants have varying views on topics such as communion. Because of this some of your arguments do not apply to specific people. So when you state "No protestant can answer this question it could be easily answered with "I don't believe in what you are accusing me of believing."

I believe that your stance is that Catholicism believes that the Pope alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. I have only just begun my pursuit of exploring church history through a catholic lens but from my very limited knowledge it seems that Catholic theology has evolved over the centuries. As I study more and come across more details I would love for this to be a topic of discussion. To be clear I am not making accusations. I am seeking clarity and deeper understanding.

But to return to the question at hand: Communion is a mystery to me. I tend to favor a consubstantiation view of the Eucharist. The elements do not transform but remain in union with Christ's real presence. I can't explain it but the presence of Christ is real in some way. I am not opposed to a transubstantiation view but the farthest I have been able to come is that it is a mystery. So...Jesus' flesh is real on the cross and we partake of Christ in some mysterious way when we participate in communion.

Summary
I'll stop here for now and let you think about and evaluate what he said and how you would respond to it. One hint: Make sure to note the 1st 3 words of his response. I'll start back at this point in the next newsletter.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week! Again, please pray for this mailings of the Roman (Catholic) Road to Salvation tracts that will be going out in the next few weeks. 10,000+ homes and businesses will be receiving them. Just trying to plant a few seeds. And I hope that number will eventually run into the hundreds of thousands and then the millions! Everyone deserves a chance to hear the truth about the Catholic Church...from a Catholic. God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

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