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Apologetics for the Masses #504 - A Conversation With An Atheist - Or So I Thought (Part 2)
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Topic
Continuing a conversation with a person who is not a pure atheist, but is, essentially, an atheist in practice...sort of.
General Comments
Hey folks,
Here's an apologetics resource for you from Steve Ray. I mentioned this in the past - about a year ago - but just in case you missed it I thought I would put it out there again: Steve Ray - Questions for Bible Christians. There are about 40 or so questions there that you can use in your conversations with Protestants. Good stuff. You know how I like to ask people questions.
Introduction
This week I am going to give you a test. In the last newsletter, I spotlighted a conversation I was having with a person I called an atheist. After reading what he says in his latest emails to me (see below), I will qualify that by saying that he is not a "pure" atheist - i.e., he doesn't deny that there is a God, or a higher power - but he is, essentially, a practical atheist. By that I mean, he is someone for whom God, or the higher power, has no practical impact on his day-to-day life. He accepts God as an idea...a possibility...but not so much as a lived reality.
Since the last newsletter was published, he has sent me four emails responding to what I said in that newsletter. I have published them below. In the last of those 4 emails, he says that he wishes to no longer engage in our conversation. No problem at all. Overall, I have to commend him for actually answering the questions I asked him, and doing so in a mature and reasonable manner. We were able to have an actual conversation, which is more than I can say for most of the Protestants that I engage with who generally refuse to give direct answers to questions and who, quite often, condemn me to Hell and so on and so forth. So I wish him well and, who knows, maybe he'll want to continue the conversation at some point in the future.
Okay, so what is this test I mentioned? What I want you to do is go back and read what he said in the last newsletter - Apologetics for the Masses #503 - and then read what he says in this newsletter. And this is what I want you to look for: What is the main underlying conflict...or contradiction...in what he is saying? I.e., what is the biggest problem you can identify with his arguments? It pretty much underlies everything he says. And give me some examples of where/how this problem shows itself in his comments. And, if you can identify any other issues in his arguments, please feel free to share those with me as well. Particularly, were there any disconnects between the Bible verses he quoted in the 2nd email below and the points he was making vis-a-vis Catholic/Christian teaching?
The person who gives me the best answer - and I am the sole judge in this matter - will receive a signed copy of both of my books. (I'm sure that offering such an incredibly valuable prize has you instantaneously engaged, right?) Here's the thing - in pretty much every conversation you have with a Protestant, atheist, etc. about the Catholic Faith, you can usually, with just one or two questions, get them to contradict themselves...to contradict their beliefs. But, you have to be able to recognize the contradiction (or contradictions) that they get caught in, so that you can point it out and, hopefully, plant a seed by showing them that their belief system has inherent contradictions in it. And a belief system that is built on contradictions, is not a belief system that is worthy of belief.
If you wish to take a crack at it, I'll give you until Thursday to send me a response. I'll give you my analysis in the next newsletter.
(By the way, I sent him no responses in between these emails - I've been busy with a number of other things - so his emails are all in response to my last newsletter.)
(Note: in the 3rd email below, the "Questions" are mine, from the last newsletter.)
Challenge/Response/Strategy
Dear John,
Thank you for taking the time to engage in this thoughtful discussion and for featuring our conversation in the newsletter. I want to clarify that I never stated I don’t believe in God. But my beliefs in God don’t align with religious dogma in the traditional sense.
I also want to express my gratitude for your detailed thoughts and reflections. I’ve been reading your newsletter for many years, and I used to listen to you on EWTN answering questions, so I value the discussions you bring forth. Yes, I was raised in a Protestant faith, and while I understand the traditional teachings around the “evil dogma“, I view things differently.
For me, being moral means striving for ethical behavior, doing what is right with integrity, and treating others with respect and fairness, regardless of external standards.
I’m glad we can discuss so many interesting topics that you’ve raised. There’s so much depth in these conversations, and I’d love to continue exploring them further.
I’ll definitely answer more questions soon.
K.
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Dear John,
I never suggested belief in God or Jesus should automatically make someone moral. What I was referring to is the seeming inconsistency between professing faith and living in a way that aligns with that faith. You mentioned, “Nowhere does Christianity claim that a belief in God automatically makes people ‘more moral,’” and I agree that belief alone doesn’t guarantee moral behavior. However, the Bible does speak to the transformative power of belief. There are many Bible verses that support the idea that believing in God or Jesus leads to personal transformation and moral improvement. Here are several key passages:
1. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Transformation in Christ
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” This verse clearly states that faith in Christ brings a fundamental change in a person’s nature.
2. Romans 12:2; Renewing the Mind
“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” Faith leads to a renewed way of thinking, guiding believers toward better moral choices.
3. Galatians 5:22-23; The Fruit of the Spirit
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” The presence of God’s Spirit in a believer produces virtues that make them a better person.
4. Ezekiel 36:26; A New Heart
“And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.” This Old Testament promise foreshadows how faith changes a person’s heart, making them more compassionate and righteous.
5. Titus 2:11-12; Training in Righteousness
“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age.” Faith not only saves but also teaches believers to live morally upright lives.
6. Colossians 3:9-10; Putting on the New Self
“Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.” Becoming a believer involves shedding bad habits and growing into a better person.
7. Philippians 1:6; God’s Work in Believers
“And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Faith sets believers on a path of continuous growth and moral refinement.
8. Matthew 5:16; Letting Your Faith Shine
“Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” True faith leads to actions that inspire and help others, making the world better.
9. Ephesians 4:22-24; Renewed Character
“To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.”
Faith requires discarding past wrongs and embracing a godlier way of life.
10. James 2:17; Faith Produces Action
“So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." True belief is proven by the way a person lives, which includes moral and ethical improvement.
These verses collectively reinforce that believing in God or Jesus is meant to change a person for the better both internally (in heart and mind) and externally (in actions and relationships). While transformation may not be instant or perfect, the Bible consistently teaches that faith should lead to moral and spiritual growth.
Am I missing something? I guess it’s my upbringing that has me confused. But that’s a whole different topic. That’s why I stepped away from organized religion. And Like I said in my original email: "Will the real God stand up?"
K.
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Dear John,
You’ve raised some important questions, and I appreciate the chance to engage with them. Let me address them more closely:
Question 1: Is your lack of belief in God due in some way to your dislike of Trump and the fact that you believe he, as a professing Christian, is “in it for himself”?
Answer: My views on God and religion aren’t tied to my feelings about Trump. While I don’t align with many of his actions or how he represents Christianity, my concerns about organized religion stem from the inconsistencies I’ve seen in how different traditions and leaders interpret and live out moral, ethical, and integrity-based teachings. I’m open to the idea of God, but I don’t believe any religious tradition fully captures the nature of God or morality in the way it claims to.
Question 2: If a majority of American society backs Trump, and we have evidence for this based upon the election results as well as recent polls, then isn’t everything he is doing moral?
Answer: Just because a majority supports someone doesn’t make their actions moral. Societal consensus can be flawed—morality isn’t simply a reflection of the majority’s opinion. History shows that actions once widely accepted, like slavery, were morally wrong, even if society supported them at the time. Moral actions, in my view, go beyond popular opinion and should be rooted in deeper principles like empathy, fairness, respect, ethics, and integrity.
Question 3: I mean, if a society decides its own morality, then isn’t Trump acting in a moral manner since he has a majority of the society on his side?
Answer: While society shapes its moral standards, I don’t think morality is decided solely by the majority. If that were true, morally questionable acts could be justified simply because they’re widely accepted. I believe that morality must transcend societal trends and be based on principles that are more than just what the majority wants at a given time. These principles should prioritize human dignity, fairness, honesty, and kindness.
Question 4: And, if he is acting morally, then why are you upset with him?
Answer: I’m upset with him because I don’t think his actions reflect moral values like empathy, respect for others, or a strong sense of ethics and integrity. Morality, to me, isn’t about political outcomes or power—it’s about how we treat one another and whether our actions are in line with values that promote fairness, honesty, and mutual respect. In many cases, I see Trump acting in ways that appear self-serving and divisive, which undermines the moral, ethical, and integrity-based leadership I believe is necessary for society.
Question 5: But, if you say he isn’t acting in a moral manner, then by what standard are you making that judgment?
Answer: I base my moral and ethical judgment on principles that prioritize empathy, fairness, integrity, and the well-being of others. While I don’t claim to have a perfect or complete understanding of morality or ethics, I do believe there are fundamental ethical principles that we can all agree on—treating people with respect, fairness, honesty, and kindness. I don’t think we need organized religion to understand these values.
Question 6: Maybe he isn’t acting according to what you think is moral, but so what?
Answer: The issue for me is that the actions of world leaders, including Trump, and religious leaders, have far-reaching effects on society, both domestically and, in some cases, internationally. When leaders, whether political or religious, act in ways that seem morally or ethically questionable, it influences the culture and can affect the values of the people they represent. Leaders on the world stage have a responsibility not only to their own communities but also to global stability, peace, and cooperation. Morality, ethics, and integrity aren’t just personal matters—they have societal and global implications. When leaders behave poorly, it can harm the moral fabric of the societies they lead and the relationships between nations.
Question 7: In the absence of God, who is it that gets to decide what is or is not moral?|
Answer: I believe that morality, ethics, and integrity aren’t just something dictated by God or by an organized religious institution. While I remain open to the idea of God, I think moral and ethical decisions are guided by our shared human experiences—our capacity for empathy, our desire for justice, our sense of integrity, and our ability to reflect on what is fair and just. We may not have all the answers, but we have the tools to engage in moral reasoning and make decisions that contribute to the greater good.
“K”
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Dear John,
First, I appreciate that you took the time to answer my original question. You made your stance very clear, both in terms of why you believe in God and your perspective on Trump. I respect that. As I mentioned before, I wasn’t expecting our conversation to be included in the newsletter. I’m not an apologist or trying to challenge anyone’s faith, I was simply asking for your personal perspective as a longtime subscriber who values your insights.
That being said I do subscribe to other apologists with many different views and perspectives. My views on God aren’t tied to any particular religious organization anymore. I do believe in a higher power, but the name “God” doesn’t have the same meaning anymore. I am still trying to understand the supernatural world which I do believe exists.
My original question came from frustration with how politics and religion have become so intertwined in public discourse. I wasn’t looking for a debate, and I don’t feel comfortable answering so many in-depth questions or addressing some of the assumptions about my intentions. To be honest, I feel overwhelmed by the number of questions in your emails, as they require more time and depth than I’m able to give.
With that in mind, I’d prefer not to continue our newsletter conversation, but I do appreciate your time and response.
Thank you,
K.
Closing Comments
I hope all of you have a great week! Don't forget to fast this Wednesday and Friday!
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