Apologetics for the Masses #495 - Forgiveness Without Repentance? (Part 2)

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Topic

Do we have to forgive others if they do not repent? Comments in response to my last newsletter.

Introduction

I thought last week's newsletter on whether or not we have to forgive those who sin against us - even if they don't repent...i.e., unconditional forgiveness - would draw a lot of responses, and it did. So, this week, I'm going to print a few of those responses, and then comment on each of them, as it will give me the opportunity to clarify some misunderstandings in regard to what I said and to expand on my thoughts a little bit. My comments will sometimes come after the Reader's Response and sometimes be interspersed with the Reader's Response.

(To see the last newsletter - #494 - you can go here: Apologetics for the Masses #494)

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Reader Response #1 - Gary
Hey John I just read your post on forgiving those who do not repent. As you remarked, it is a jolt to the mind that just never gave that issue much thought. So where does the part where Jesus said " Father, forgive them, they know not what they do", and St Stephen's," Lord, do not hold this sin against them", fit in? Those responsible for both deaths werent repentant, although it does say that many were repentant after seeing the signs that showed themselves after Jesus died. As you said, you must always be ready to forgive those who do repent. So when both Jesus and St. Stephen made their pleas, were they mainly asking for the grace of repentance be bestowed on their executioners in order that they may BE forgiven?

My Comments
I can't say exactly what the outcome of Jesus' plea, and also that of St. Stephen, was in regard to the forgiveness of the sins of those who presided over their deaths; however, what I can do is make the observation that Jesus, as God, could have outright unconditionally forgiven those who crucified Him - could He not? - yet, He didn't do so, at least, not that Scripture records. Jesus specifically states, in Matthew 9:6, that He has the authority on earth to forgive sins. Yet, from the Cross He doesn't say, "I forgive them of their sins," rather, He asks the Father to forgive them due to their ignorance of what exactly it was they were doing and to Whom they were doing it. So, Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but He Himself did not say that He was unconditionally forgiving them. Does that mean that the Father unconditionally forgave those who put Jesus to death? Not necessarily, as Jesus also asked the Father for the "cup" to be passed from Him when He was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, but that didn't happen.

Also, St. Stephen doesn't say to those who were stoning him, "I forgive you of your sins against me." He asked God to not hold their sin against them (Acts 7:60). So, did Stephen unconditionally forgive those who stoned him?

All of which is to say, that I lean heavily towards Jesus' and St. Stephen's pleas to the Father as being something along the lines of what you suggested - they were asking the Father to grant grace upon their executioners that would help them to come to repentance and conversion, which would result in their sins being forgiven. Jesus, of course, but St. Stephen as well, showed no anger, no hatred, no bitterness toward those who were responsible for their deaths. They showed nothing but love. But, did they forgive them unconditionally? We don't know for sure, but Scripture does not tell us that they did.

Reader Response #2 - Dan
Disagree based on the basis that I am unknowing and may not know if or when someone comes to repentance. God will judge, I do not need to burden myself with unforgiving. One cannot pray for the unforgiven of God. Anyone including myself can pray for the unrepentant that they may change.

My Comments
Well, I would offer three thoughts in response:

1) Nowhere did I say that one cannot unconditionally forgive another if one so chooses. I simply said it is not an absolute requirement for us to do based on what Scripture says and the fact that God does not unconditionally forgive us.

2) Unconditional forgiveness could potentially have negative consequences, as the example of my deck contractor possibly shows. Sometimes justice ignored leads to more injustice (more sin) being perpetrated against you or others. Allowing a person to continue sinning because you are willing to unconditionally forgive them of their sins is, to me, not an act of love. In many circumstances it is referred to as enabling.

3) I would argue that unforgiveness is not necessarily a "burden". I do not mean that if one chooses not to forgive someone that that necessarily entails being angry, bitter, hateful, etc. towards the perpetrator. It simply means that I am not willing to have the punishment due to that person - the justice due to that person - unconditionally forgiven. For example, with my deck contractor, should he ever approach me and ask for forgiveness, I would grant it upon the condition that he give me restitution to the tune of $500, assuming he is in a position to be able to make that restitution. If he's not in a position to do so, then I would go ahead and forgive him of that debt. But, if he drives up in a brand new Hummer and asks for me to forgive him, I would definitely be asking for my $500 back. However, my not forgiving him without his repentance is no burden to me, whatsoever. I hold no hatred, no anger, no animosity towards him. I simply hold him responsible for the $500 he stole from me.

Reader Response #3 - Leo
If:
1. the requirement is love, willing the good, both before and after forgiveness
2. forgiveness is not reconciliation
3. forgiveness does not remove the requirement for restitution

Then what, exactly, is forgiveness? I guess it seems like a meaningless word.

I don't think there is a problem with the first premise. That seems pretty clear. But the second and third? Does God forgive without reconciliation? Does God forgive but still require justice? Which I suppose in both cases would mean He "forgives" but still sends us to hell?

I mean, if we use the version of the Lord's prayer with debts/debtors this seems more clear, similarly the parable of the talents. Otherwise, what does it mean when He says "He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice"? But then you mention Purgatory, and I suppose with indulgences my debt is paid from the treasury of the Church.. so I don't know.

I have seen a quote from Mother Angelica a few times on the EWTN daily emails where she says something to the effect of "you cannot get into heaven disliking even one person." I guess it seems reconciliation has to happen somewhere, sometime, in order for us all to be united in Heaven. Similarly... would God accept souls He doesn't "like"?

My Comments
"Then what, exactly, is forgiveness?" Fair question. I would say forgiveness involves two aspects - love and justice. Or, maybe it could be conceived as one aspect - love - being an eternal aspect of forgiveness, and the other aspect - justice - being a temporal aspect of forgiveness. So, we can "forgive" someone in the sense that we love them and we hope and pray for their repentance, conversion, and eternal salvation; yet, not forgive someone in that we still require that they incur the temporal consequences of their actions. So, if someone burns my house down, I forgive them in the eternal sense that I love them and hope and pray for their repentance, conversion, and eventual salvation; but I don't forgive them in the temporal sense in that I still want them to go to prison and to pay whatever restitution they are able to pay. Or, to use the example I used above, I want my former deck contractor to repent and be forgiven of his sin and to obtain salvation (eternal), but I still want him to pay back the $500 he stole from me (temporal).

"Does God forgive but still require justice?" Absolutely He does. Just look at the story of David in 2 Samuel 12:13-14. David's sin was forgiven, but because of what he had done, the child that was born to him would die. There was a consequence for sin even after the sin had been forgiven. Also, what is Purgatory? Purgatory is a place where we go to pay for the temporal consequences of our sins that have not been paid during our life here on Earth. Justice. You mention indulgences. Well, even if a soul in Purgatory receives a plenary indulgence, they will still have suffered tremendously for whatever "time" they were in Purgatory before they received the indulgence. Plus, the price that was due would have been paid through that indulgence, so justice will have been satisfied.

Regarding the quote you mention from Mother Angelica, I would need to see the exact quote - as opposed to "something to the effect" of the exact quote - but I'm willing to bet that, taken in context, what she is talking about when she uses the word "dislike" is more akin to having ill will towards someone than it is to what I'm talking about.

"Similarly... would God accept souls He doesn't "like"?" Well, a couple of thoughts on that: 1) God has the advantage over us of knowing perfectly a person's heart and mind; therefore, if He accepts a soul into Heaven, it is because that soul is a pure soul with no stain of sin - it has been cleansed of anything that is not good. It has been completely and profoundly changed. We, however, have no such knowledge about a person's soul. 2) I think it is fair to say that God does not "like" souls with sin on them; therefore, such souls are relegated either to Purgatory (if no mortal sin) or to Hell (if mortal sin). So, in that sense, I would have to say, no, I don't think God accepts souls into Heaven that He does not like.

Reader Response #4 - David
On forgiveness: four points to consider:

1. Receiving God's forgiveness through His Church is not the same as receiving forgiveness from your brother. When I forgive my brother, I am not using the authority of the Church via Holy Orders. ( I am not a Catholic priest.) You compared God's forgiveness of sinners to human forgiveness of sinners, implying that the requirements and results are the same, but they are not. He is God and you are not.

2. What about venial vs mortal sin? Your comments do not address this important distinction.

3. We are commanded to forgive for a number of reasons. One reason is so we can release and be freed from personal anger, bitterness, and sorrow.

4. Pray for those who have wronged you.. Best point you made.

My Comments
1) Yes, human acts of forgiveness are different than God's acts of forgiveness; nowhere did I say or even imply otherwise. However, it is not at all unreasonable to assert that if God does not grant unconditional forgiveness, then we are not required to do so, especially since the Scriptures say that we are to forgive if our brother asks us to forgive him. The word "if" makes the forgiveness conditional.

2) The difference between venial and mortal sin is moot in regard to my granting forgiveness to someone who has sinned against me. If someone sins against God, and that sin is a venial sin, then God still requires a price before that sin to be forgiven. There is no unconditional forgiveness from God for even venial sin.

3) I stated very clearly in my last newsletter that one should not hold anger, hatred, animosity, desire for vengeance, or any such thing in one's heart toward those who have sinned against you. Just the opposite. So, not forgiving someone does not mean that one necessarily holds onto anger, hate, or resentment.

4) Pray for those who have wronged you, whether you have forgiven them or not.

Reader Response #5 - Eddie
In the past I struggled with the concept of unconditional or automatic forgiveness; and would have agreed with your article, but still did not feel comfortable with it. A while l back I read a piece (perhaps an article by Fr. Robert Altier in the Wanderer?) about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Reconciliation is another word used for the Sacrament of Confession. A better word I think, as while you have to confess and you have to do penance, the goal is reconciliation with God and His Church. Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, but the word reconciliation is absent in your article and Jimmy Akin’s. I think it is a key word when talking about forgiveness.

I believe God forgives us automatically, and He expects us to do so as well. I can forgive someone who has wronged me whether or not they express remorse. As Jimmy points out, forgiveness is more for my benefit than for the offender, who might not know or even care whether they are forgiven. Nor does it require me to communicate my forgiveness to the offender. Forgiveness does not ignore the fact that it happened, it hurt, and it mattered. It does not preclude seeking justice. It is no longer holding a grudge and letting go of the hurt. Forgiveness is a spiritual act, one that requires God’s grace to accomplish.

My Comments
Yes, indeed, the goal of the Sacrament of Confession is reconciliation with God. However, that reconciliation is not automatic...it is dependent upon the forgiveness of our sins by God. And, God puts conditions on us in order to receive His forgiveness. We have to repent. We have to confess. We have to have a sincere desire to amend our lives. Without these conditions, we are not forgiven. So, I would have to disagree with the statement that "God forgives us automatically." If that were true, then, as I said in last week's newsletter, there would be no need for the Sacrament of Confession. We would simply sin, and then God would automatically forgive us. That does not happen.

And, yes, we can forgive someone whether they repent or not - as I said in the last newsletter. And, whether or not we forgive them, we should still not harbor anger or hatred towards them. We should want for them what God wants for them - repentance, conversion, and salvation. In other words, whether they ever repent or not, we should love them. But, I draw a very clear line between loving someone and necessarily "liking" them. The former we are called to do, the latter we are not called to do.

Reader Response #5 - Eddie (cont'd)
On the flip side, as the offender, I have to accept that forgiveness and repent. Reconciliation requires repentance, but forgiveness does not. From the cross, Jesus forgave people who had not repented and maybe never would. We must do the same. With God, as long as we repent worthily in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, God will always reconcile with us. With us humans, while repentance is required for reconciliation, there is no requirement for the offended to reconcile.

Like your deadbeat deck guy, you forgive him, but when he gets out of jail, you are not interested in doing business with him again. Nor does forgiving him preclude you from suing him, for the reasons you mention. It does mean letting go of the hurt, and not carrying that baggage and outrage around with you.

My Comments
I would disagree with you that, from the Cross, Jesus "forgave people who had not repented and maybe never would." Scripture does not say that He unconditionally forgave those who crucified Him even without them repenting. He didn't say, "Father, I forgive them," which He could have done since, as God, He had the power to forgive sins; rather, He asked the Father to forgive them. Which, as I said above, I take that to mean that He was asking the Father to grant them the grace to repent and/or that when they repented, the Father would indeed forgive them of their sin even though it was such an egregious sin.

Reader Response #6 - Keith
Wow....yes, these statements are shocking to me and I need to ponder more fully the "Forgiveness " lessons contained in the "Our Father". If I'm understanding this doctrinal twist, we are to always love, while not always requiring forgiveness toward the unrepentant perpetrator. How, then, do you explain Christ's plea from the cross in Luke 23:34 "Father, forgive them". Likewise, in Acts 7:60, Stephen, while being martyred, cried with a loud voice "Lord, do not hold this sin against them".

As far as I can tell; your article, nor Jimmy Akins, referenced these verses. Yet, it has always been these verses that led me to believe that our forgiveness MUST be unconditional; made possible only by God's (who is love) supernatural gift to us. Isn't God’s forgiveness granted only to the extent that we (unconditionally) forgive others? I thought so, perhaps wrongly.

In reviewing further the examples of Christ on the Cross as well as Stephen's stoning, your position may be explained by the perpetrators "invincible ignorance ". Am I onto something? Peter declares in Acts 3:17 "I know that you (Men of Israel) , and your rulers, acted in ignorance". Paul in I Cor 2:8, when describing God's true wisdom, makes an interesting statement: "none of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory". Furthermore, CCC 591, 597 point out that Christ and Peter accept that the Jews, and their leaders, were "ignorant". Perhaps I've overlooked Christ's qualifier from the cross ".....for they know not what they do".

So is that it? These petitions of forgiveness for their executioners are explained by their ignorance? So what about examples such as JPII visiting and forgiving his attempted assassin (Agca) in 1981? Was Saint Pope JPII going "over and beyond" that which was necessary; or was he setting a Godly, supernatural example of perfect love? I always thought it was the latter.

So now I have much pondering and praying to do about a topic that I thought I understood perfectly well. Thanks for sharing your FB posts with Mike, as well as Jimmy Akins article from Catholic Answers. Any comments or reflections are appreciated. What an awesome God we serve via the Church that Christ founded!

My Comments
First, I would refer to my comments above about Jesus' and St. Stephen's purported "forgiveness" of those who put them to death. Again, Jesus could have said, "I forgive them," but He didn't. Stephen could have said, "I forgive them," but he didn't. I look at those as requests for the Father to forgive should those men repent and ask for forgiveness and also maybe a request for grace to be poured out on those men to enable them to repent. Also, they had forgiven them in the sense of the aspect of love that I speak of above - the eternal sense - where they prayed and hoped for the best for their executioners, but they also recognized that there was still the justice aspect that needed to be accounted for.

Secondly, regarding John Paul II and his would-be assassin, that was indeed an incredible act on his part. Was it going "over and beyond" what was necessary? That's not for me to say. Every person's situation is different. Only God knows the heart and mind. I think we can all agree, though, that that was an extraordinary circumstance. Plus, even though Agca repented and asked the Pope for forgiveness, the forgiveness of Agca's temporal punishment - his prison sentence - wasn't until several years later.

Reader Response #7 - George
Thanks for the article on forgiveness, and I don’t disagree with you at all, just want to give you another perspective. My wife and I, along with two others, run a “healing ministry” at our local parish. We basically were trained by a Catholic group called “Servants and Handmaids” that was started by Fr. Luke Zimmer, who was an awesome priest but died many years ago from cancer...Some can be emotional, others physical, psychological, or spiritual healing. We pray with a lot of people who were abused when they were younger and could be in their 50’s or 60’s now and come for healing prayer. In regards to a lot of these cases the abuser is dead, but they are still suffering from the trauma. One thing that we have been taught and the priests agree with this, that without forgiveness the healing process doesn’t move forward. What we tell these people is that it’s a decision to forgive not an emotion. You don’t have to feel good about it but once you make the decision to forgive, God takes over and the healing process seems to move forward. I had a 55 year old female, tell our prayer team praying with her that she was abused at age 9 and we were the first people she ever told. She was suffering from guilt (which we told her she wasn’t guilty in any way she was a child) and she had unforgiveness towards herself and her uncle who abused her. When we led her through prayer and forgiveness you could see the weight taken off of her.

I think people that pray for the conversion of souls that have hurt or wronged them maybe have forgiven them in a spiritual way. Maybe that allows them to be able to be concerned about the soul of the person who has wronged them.

Just a thought…

My Comments
I think that fits well with my comments above - under "Reader Response #3" - about the two aspects of forgiveness...love and justice; eternal vs. temporal forgiveness.

Closing Comments

I hope you've enjoyed this edition of the newsletter. Again, these are my thoughts and opinions. I am not saying that any of the particulars here are somehow written in doctrinal stone. However, the overall premise that God does not require us to grant to others unconditional forgiveness, has a firm basis in Scripture and in His own example.

I hope all of you have a great week!

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