Apologetics for the Masses #489 - A Mean and Judgmental, but Open-Minded and Tolerant, Catholic

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Topic

A look at the writings of, and a conversation (of sorts) with, another heterodox (aka liberal) Catholic.

Introduction

As I mentioned in my last newsletter, there is a group of folks - Modernists - out there in the Christian world, who generally see themselves as loving, open-minded, and tolerant, even though, in my experience, they are, on average, a particularly mean and uncharitable group of folks, particularly those Modernists who self-identify as Catholics. The term "liberal" is often attached to such folks - liberal Protestants, liberal Catholics - but I prefer to call them, at least the ones who identify as Catholics, "heterodox" - i.e., they disbelieve certain teachings of the Church and/or they rail against certain practices of the Church and they especially don't like "conservative" or "traditionalists" Catholics - those that I refer to as "orthodox" Catholics.

Last week I shared a Facebook conversation I had with one such Modernist who, I believe, was from the Catholic tradition - I came across him on the page of a famous Catholic theologian - but he could have been Protestant...I just couldn't say for sure. This week, however, is a look at some excerpts of the writings of one who definitely identifies herself as Catholic, as well as a conversation I had with her in the "Comments" section of one of her articles. Her name is Mary Pezzulo and she writes a column for Patheos.com under the moniker of "Steel Magnificat". I don't hesitate to share her name as she is a very public persona - she does, after all, have a regular column on Patheos and she has even, apparently, won some awards in the Catholic literary sphere. I found her to be a fairly unkind, intolerant, and just downright mean person.

I first came across her because I did, for several weeks, also write a column for Patheos and saw an article she had written slamming Catholic Answers, in particular, and Catholic apologists, in general. After reading that article, I went and did some research as to who this person was who was writing this trash about Catholic apologists, and so I read a few more of her articles. Suffice it to say that I was singularly unimpressed. Anyway, below is an excerpt from her article trashing Catholic Answers and catholic apologists, and then the conversation I had with her in the Comments section of that article. After that are some excerpts from a few of her other articles - with links to the articles so you can read them yourselves if you so desire. Finally, I close with a comment about Catholic Answers.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

{Note: For those of you who are unaware, a few months back Catholic Answers experimented with an online AI program it named "Fr. Justin," which was intended to answer many of the questions about the Catholic Church that Catholic Answers regularly receives from people all over the country, and from all over the world. The experiment with the AI Fr. Justin did not go well, and Catholic Answers got hammered for it by Catholics pretty much across the board. The excerpts below are from an article Mary Pezzulo wrote in the aftermath of the Fr. Justin situation.}

Mary Pezzulo from "Faith, Apologetics and the Strange Case of Father Justin"
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2024/04/faith-apologetics-and-the-strange-case-of-father-justin/

So, what have we learned from this kerfuffle [with the AI Fr. Justin]? Nothing at all. It was just one big funny joke at the expense of Catholic Answers, and that’s always a good day.

Well, maybe it serves to illustrate an important point about faith, and why I don't care for apologetics.

Apologetics is the triumphalist art of having an answer for every anticipated objection. Apologists don’t seek to understand but to explain away. Apologetics doesn’t dwell with people in their difficulty and darkness; it just plows over their objections with sound bites. An apologist is someone who has a barrage of verbal spitballs to spit back at any question or concern, without trying to understand where the questioner is coming from or if the questioner knows something you don’t. Apologetics isn’t a dialogue. Apologetics is an algorithm. You can program an AI to be an apologist just fine, if you’re better at programming than whoever cobbled together poor Father Justin.

Faith is not a matter of having answers for questions. Faith is not a script or an algorithm. Faith is a journey and a struggle. Faith means wrestling with difficult questions, accepting when you don’t have an answer at all, acknowledging that the real Truth in which you’ve placed your faith is greater than human words can express anyway. Faith means long stretches of Dark Night of the Soul, where you feel that you’ve lost your faith entirely and only later realize it was deepening inside of you. Sometimes you hold onto faith, and sometimes faith holds you when you can’t hold on anymore.

A robot can be an apologist, but it takes a human to be a Christian.

My Comments
Again, the above is just a portion of the article, I encourage you to read it all for yourself. After reading her article, I came away wondering what Catholic Answers had ever done to her to deserve such disparagement? Had she actually had some personal interaction with Catholic Answers that had left her embittered and hostile towards Catholic apologetics and Catholic apologists? Maybe Tim Staples had slashed her tires once upon a time? Or, possibly, she used to live next door to Jimmy Aiken and he had kicked her dog once? Maybe she had applied for a job at Catholic Answers a few years back and Karl Keating had turned her down? What is this twisted hangup she has with Catholic Answers?

Or, does she have such a hateful view of them, and Catholic apologists, in general, just because she has some sort of issue with Catholic apologetics? Maybe she can't stand to think that there are people out there who would dare to defend the Catholic Church against those who hate and revile it - or even those who simply deny its truths - because how could any Catholic defend the Church?! Maybe Catholic apologists have answers about the Church on doctrines that she herself denies and doesn't like having her conscience pinged? Or, maybe she's a relativist and has problems with anyone who thinks they know better than someone else as to what is or is not the truth?

I mean, these statements of hers are filled with so much contempt and dripping with such venom: "Apologetics is the triumphalist art of having an answer for every anticipated objection." "Apologists don’t seek to understand but to explain away." "Apologetics doesn’t dwell with people in their difficulty and darkness; it just plows over their objections with sound bites." "Apologetics isn’t a dialogue." The problem for her, though, is that contempt and venom for something are no substitute for actual knowledge regarding the object of that contempt and venom. And her statements made it clear to me that she had absolutely no actual knowledge of what it is Catholic apologists do - at least the ones I know - and how they do it.

And then, that whole paragraph on faith. What the heck? She writes as if she has the one and only valid definition of faith and as if her experience of faith is the one and only way in which faith is validly experienced. If you don't experience faith in the way she experiences faith, well...that just means you really don't have faith or your "faith" is inferior to hers. Sounds so very similar to any number of Pentecostals and, unfortunately, some Catholic Charismatics, I've encountered over the years. If you don't speak in tongues, then you don't have the Holy Spirit! Or some traditionalists - if you don't go to the Latin Mass, then you really aren't going to Mass. In other words, if you don't do things the way I do things, and if you don't experience things the way I experience things, then you and your faith are obviously inferior to me and my faith.

I really loved the part where she said: "Faith means wrestling with difficult questions, accepting when you don’t have an answer at all..." But, here's the thing, she doesn't want anyone to be out there who might be able to give you answers to any of the difficult questions you might have, because she has lined all the Catholic apologists up against a wall and shot them for crimes against the Truth! This is the logic of the angry and the conflicted.

And then that last sentence of hers that I quoted: "A robot can be an apologist, but it takes a human to be a Christian." What humility. What humanity. Catholic apologists are, essentially, robots - i.e., have no soul - but she, Mary Pezzulo, is a human and a Christian and she is so much better than all of those horrible, horrible Catholic apologists.

So, after reading that article, I thought I would try to engage in a dialogue with Ms. Mary Pezzulo by posting in the "Comments" section of her article. This is how it went:

John Martignoni
It is so spiritually refreshing to read the invective perfect Christians are so willing to reign down upon sinners such as, you know...Catholic apologists.

Mary, have you ever actually talked to a Catholic apologist? I know you and I have never talked. What about Trent Horn? Devin Rose? Tim Staples? Jimmy Akin? Have you ever engaged one in dialogue? Have you ever shared with them your concerns about apologetics? Have you ever done for them what you claim they do not do for others - "seek to understand"?

By the way, have you ever answered a question about the Faith or explained some aspect of the Faith to someone? If you have, guess what? You're a Catholic apologist. These folks are filling a need - the need that people have to understand what it is the Catholic Church teaches and why. Catholic apologetics is about giving a reasoned response to questions about, or even attacks on, the Catholic Faith. If you feel that is worthy of condemnation, then so be it. But, here's the thing: You don't know me. And you don't know what I do, how I do it, nor why I do it. So don't pretend that you do.

Mary Pezzulo
You're right, I don't know you nor anything about you, but I just googled you and you're at Catholic Answers. I hope your job isn't taken by an AI priest.

John Martignoni
Actually, no...I'm not at Catholic Answers. I'm on the Catholic Answers Speakers Bureau, but I do not work for them. So much for your research abilities.

Look, you try to present yourself as this loving, open-minded, tolerant Christian; yet, you have been most intolerant to an entire class of people - Catholic apologists - of which I am one. Your invective against me, and my fellow apologists, was born out of ignorance at best, and malice at worst. If you truly are a loving, tolerant, open-minded Christian, why don't you try asking me what I do and how I do it? Why don't you try asking me why I do what I do? Instead of just issuing a blanket condemnation of me and what I do when, again, you know nothing about me and you have made it quite obvious that you also know nothing about what I do and how I do it. And, you could start by issuing a blanket apology to all the Catholic apologists out there...

Mary Pezzulo
I don't pretend to be anything of the kind, I'm just me. And I don't really care who you are.

My Comments
This person has some serious conflicts with logic. She says that she doesn't pretend to be a loving, open-minded, tolerant Christian; yet, she has just, essentially, juxtaposed herself against Catholic apologists. And what did she say about Catholic apologists? Well, they're triumphalist. They don't seek to understand where others are coming from. They don't dialogue. They aren't down with the struggle. They aren't on a journey. They don't really have faith. They aren't really Christian. They aren't really human. But, Mary...well, Mary is fully human. She doesn't think she's better than anyone. She seeks to understand others and where they're coming from. She engages in dialogue. She has deep faith resulting from her noble struggles. She...she is a Christian!

And, given all of that...she doesn't give a rip about me. You ever wonder about people who don't seem to read what they themselves have actually written.

Lesson: But, there's an apologetics lesson in all of this that can be applied to any of your conversations with Protestants, atheists, etc.: Don't ever assume things about others that you do not have direct knowledge of. She assumed all of these things about Catholic apologists without, very apparently, actually having a conversation with any of them. She slammed Catholic apologists for not engaging in dialogue with others and for not trying to understand where others are coming from, while being completely oblivious that she was doing those exact things in regard to Catholic apologists. She was being a hypocrite first class. That's why I am always asking questions of others. I want to know what they're thinking and why they're thinking it. I hate it when Protestants, in particular, try to tell me what I, as a Catholic, believe and why I believe it. Ask questions, people. Don't just throw out generalizations and stereotypes about the folks you're talking to. Ask someone what it is they believe and why they believe it. And, remember, use lots of yes/no questions when doing so.

Now, continuing the conversation with Mary Pezzulo:

John Martignoni
Well, that's a shame. Because I care about who you are.

Mary Pezzulo
No you don't.

John Martignoni
Again, you act as if you know me, yet you don't. Why is that?

John Martignoni
I am a supersonic idiotic brain infected disconnected booger-pickin' piece of chicken.

*note for the audience, this post has been edited by the moderator.

{Note, for my readers, Mary P. posted that as if it had come from me...that's why I have it italicized.}

Mary Pezzulo
For the record, I don't usually edit my comments unless somebody's done something dangerous like post their own personal email or phone number. I delete or I close the combox or I let it run to seed. But I edited this one, just this once, as an object lesson.

John Martignoni
Nice. Displays an exceedingly creative intellect. Compassion for others, even if they disagree with you. A rather thin skin. And, of course, open-mindedness, tolerance, and Christian charity.

Mary Pezzulo
You're the one who is so thin-skinned and unmanfully touchy you came on here to demand a humble apology because I mocked apologetics.

John Martignoni
Ah well, at least you admit that you "mocked" apologetics...I would add "apologists", as well. I don't care if you apologize to me or not, but you do owe any number of Catholic apologists an apology. Is apologizing something that your pride will not let you do?

Mary Pezzulo
You sound really emotional.

John Martignoni
I am a supersonic idiotic brain infected disconnected booger pickin' piece of chicken.

{Note to my readers: Again, this was posted by Mary P. as if I had posted it.}

John Martignoni
So, did my post hit too close to home and you had to revert to your high IQ, 6th grade response, eh? Interesting.

Mary Pezzulo
You came to the wrong place for a true, kind, caring, open-minded and tolerant person.

John Martignoni
Well, I'm sorry to hear that you are not true, kind, or caring. I can understand and sympathize with not being open-minded or tolerant. Why don't you try actually talking to me? Or is animosity simply one of the fruits of the Spirit that you value?

Mary Pezzulo
Because you came on here all arrogant and insulting and I responded in kind.

John Martignoni
Arrogant and insulting? Are you talking about your comments in your article or about my initial response? It seems to me the pot is trying to call the kettle black.

Mary Pezzulo
Why are you so obsessed with me? We are coming at Catholicism from fundamentally different viewpoints. You see Catholicism as a game you can win to refute the silly Protestants, and I see Catholicism as the deeply flawed and abusive mother in whom I somehow encountered Christ. My writing seeks to explore that. Your writing is apologetics. We're not going to get anywhere. Have a nice evening.

John Martignoni
How do you know how I see things? Again, you don't know me...you don't know anything about me. Again, why don't you ask me instead of just assuming things about me and what I do?!

My Comments
"I see Catholicism as the deeply flawed and abusive mother..." That, right there, says it all. That's why, it seems to me, she has such an issue with Catholic apologists, because they are trying to defend the "deeply flawed and abusive mother" which is Catholicism. She associates deeply flawed and abusive people in the Church, with the Church itself. She is, apparently, unable to separate the one from the other. That's sad. This woman apparently has some really deep issues, but that still doesn't give her an excuse to publicly disparage others in the manner in which she has chosen and to publicly proclaim how much better she is then all the Catholic troglodytes out there while trying to work out her issues in her writing.

I'm giving her every chance to have an actual dialogue. To actually show that she cares about understanding others and where they are coming from. That she's not just throwing verbal spitballs at me. That she's not just plowing over my objections with sound bites. But she just can't bring herself to do that. Why? Because there is so much anger inside of her. And not just at Catholic apologists. If you read her other articles - I'll give some snippets below - she doesn't have much of anything nice to say about hardly anyone. She hates Franciscan University of Steubenville where she says she was "spiritually molested". She can't stand crisis pregnancy centers nor the people that work and volunteer at them. She has big issues with the people who live in the area she lives in.

You know, I truly feel sorry for someone like this, but not to such an extent that I would say her issues somehow excuse her inflicting her anger, angst, and hate on others and publicly trashing them in the process. Apparently her writing provides some sort of catharsis for her, but it does so at the expense of so many others. But, she is the one who is truly human...truly Christian. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for such hypocrites.

That was, basically, the end of our conversation. Here are a few other excerpts from other articles she has published at Patheos:

-- "The next few weeks went far better than I had any reason to expect. I don’t like living in the Ohio Valley. I don’t like how cold and harsh people tend to be here." {As opposed to Mary who is warm and gentle, right?}

-- {This is from an article she wrote about Harrison Butker's commencement address at Benedictine College.} "Christianity is what happens when a human chooses to be drawn into the Life of Christ. There is another thing which looks like the practice of Christianity, but it’s a counterfeit Christianity. There’s a thing where you blurt out the expected answers because you think you’re supposed to, and imagine that that makes you a Christian– that Christianity is a matter of repeating the things you’re supposed to say. And when people dedicate themselves to that counterfeit Christianity, they start spitting out answers in a triumphalist way without even stopping to consider what they’re saying. They’re saying what they’re saying not because it has value, but in order to belong to the clique that they think is Christianity. It makes them sound like a robot, like an algorithm. Butker is, as far as I know, a human being with infinite dignity, but he stood at that podium regurgitating talking points like a robot. Blurting out the triumphalist things you’re supposed to say is a robot’s religion. Christianity is a human religion." {Good thing she's not at all judgmental.} https://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2024/05/it-takes-a-human-to-live-a-christian-life/

-- "I believe in being helpful. I believe in being helpful to a fault. I believe that most of the everyday work of Christianity involves being attentive to the needs of your neighbors and helping them even if it kills you." {That's why I said she presents herself as being loving, open-minded, and tolerant. She tries to present herself one way publicly, but shows a completely opposite side privately. Hypocrite. By the way, this was a story about how she was the only one who really cared for and tried to save the community garden. Her efforts were heroic, and so unappreciated.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2024/05/leaving-the-garden-a-resolution-for-the-summer/

Summary
Modernists come in all shapes and sizes. They can be theologians who view themselves as intellectually superior to most others and who use all sorts of high-sounding words and phrases to say absolutely nothing, or they can be people who are spiritually/emotionally wounded; yet, view themselves as spiritually and emotionally superior to most others and believe their experiences are THE most valid experiences vis-a-vis most, if not all, others. Particularly more valid than those "robots" - i.e. orthodox Catholics - who think they are Christian, but really aren't. Both are modernists because they believe the Church should adapt to the modern milieu as opposed to attempting to convert the culture around them to the teachings of the Church. One puts their intellect above the teachings and traditions of the Church, while the other puts their feelings and passions above the teachings and traditions of the Church.

How to deal with them? Same way you deal with anyone who doubts what the Church teaches and believes. Ask them questions and poke holes in their logic for the one...always driving to the question of authority; point out to the other that your feelings and experiences have just as much validity as theirs...always driving to the question of authority. With neither may you see any progress towards the truth, but that is not your goal. Your goal is to simply plant seeds.

Now, with Mary Pezzulo, it doesn't appear I even made it to a place where I could toss some seeds out there...but, you never know. Plus, there was an audience to our conversation. A small one, but an audience nonetheless. Maybe a seed was planted with someone who saw the irrationality and anger and hate in her comments, or, maybe not. It's not up to us to know these things.

A Word About Catholic Answers and the AI Father Justin Project
Even though Catholic Answers got slammed by all sorts of people about their AI Fr. Justin, I just want to say that I appreciate the effort they made and why they made it. I'm not a fan of AI, and I refuse to use it. So, I wasn't a fan of "Fr. Justin" for that reason right out of the gate. However, as someone who fields questions about the Catholic Faith from Catholic and non-Catholic alike, on an almost daily basis, I 100% understand why they did it.

I'm just a small little, one-man, apologetics apostolate; yet, I have a backlog of hundreds upon hundreds of questions about the faith that folks have emailed me. I will never be able to answer all of them. Catholic Answers, which has a much larger public footprint than I do, gets probably an order of magnitude more questions sent to them than I do. And, even though they have several staff apologists, it is still difficult for them to respond to all the questions they get in a timely manner. So, they were merely trying to come up with a way to be able to give timely, solidly Catholic, answers to all of the questions that people call and write in with. The AI Fr. Justin was an attempt to provide a service to those who want more information about the Catholic Faith. You can disagree with how they went about it, but there is no justification to do what Mary Pezzulo did and thoroughly trash them for what they were trying to do and then to take great glee in their missteps. Robots can attack people, but it takes a human to show people understanding and sympathy. It takes a human to be a Christian.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week. Please keep my wife's foot in your prayers. She's healing, but ever so slowly and she would really like the process to speed up a bit. Thanks!

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