Apologetics for the Masses #486 - Can We Have a "Reasonable Hope" That No One is in Hell?

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Topic

Is it possible that there are no souls in Hell? A response to recent statements from Pope Francis and Bishop Robert Barron.

General Comments

Hey folks,

Just a reminder, for those of you in the Birmingham area, I will be debuting a "Blue Collar Apologetics" weekend retreat at my parish - St.Theresa's in Leeds - on Friday evening, August 23rd, and Saturday morning, August 24th. The times will be 6:30 - 8:30 PM on Friday, the 23rd, and 9:00 - 11:30 AM on Saturday, the 24th. The intent for the retreat is to make this more of a workshop-style weekend as opposed to me just simply giving several talks and you passively listening.

By that I mean, I want it to be a very interactive weekend. I want to hear what kinds of conversations you are having with folks - in person, via email, on Facebook and other social media platforms, and help you learn how to be a more effective and more efficient - and less frustrated - apologist and evangelist when engaging in such conversations. I want you to give me examples from your experiences and we can analyze them and see what you did right and also to see if there were things you could have done better. I want to give you real life examples - from my conversations and other conversations I've seen on places like Facebook - and dissect what was right and what was wrong with how those conversations developed.

I will talk about rules to follow and pitfalls to avoid when engaging in apologetics. You will learn how to shut down even the most aggressive of anti-Catholic evangelists and to plant seeds of truth with all who you engage with. You'll leave the weekend more comfortable with the idea of engaging in conversations about the Faith with family members, friends, co-workers, and so on, and more confident in your ability to do so.

Anyone from high school - maybe even middle school - on up should be able to get something out of this weekend. So, if you want to overcome any fears you may have in regard to talking about the Faith, and to get better at spreading the "Good News" - at explaining and defending the truths of the Catholic Faith - which we are all, as Catholics, called to do, then please consider joining me for this weekend event.

To "register" for the weekend, just go to Blue Collar Retreat Weekend Registration and make a donation of $10/person. If you are coming with family members it's $10 for one of you, $20 for two, and $25 for 3. Any over 3 per family are free. The registration fee is there to simply cover costs for snacks, drinks, and handouts. Space is limited, so register sooner rather than later. And, very important, when you register, either include a note with the donation that it is for the retreat weekend, or shoot me an email immediately after you register to let me know. My email address is: john@biblechristiansociety.com.

I look forward to seeing you there!

Introduction

In statements that were made relatively recently, both Pope Francis and Bishop Robert Barron expressed hope that there is no one in Hell. In this newsletter, I would like to express my views as to why I don't think there is any hope that Hell is empty. So, below I'll give what each one of them said, and then I'll respond.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Bishop Robert Barron
Bishop Barron stated a few years ago - and it caused, and is still causing, a bit of a ruckus in the church, at least, here in the U.S. - that " we are permitted to hope that all people might be saved." A number of folks accused him of teaching universalism, which is the heretical belief that everyone will end up in Heaven, regardless of what they did or did not do while alive here on Earth. And I think some believe that even Satan and his demons will eventually end up in Heaven, too. In response to the stir his remarks caused, Bishop Barron posted a short video on his website, along with a written statement, in which he defends and explains his remarks. In the video, the bishop says, "We may legitimately hope that all people will be saved," with heavy emphasis on the word "hope". He goes on to say that he personally does not believe all will be saved and that he does not expect all will be saved, but that he can still "hope" that all will be saved. He denies that he holds a universalist position - that all will be saved. To see this video and to read further explanation of what he is saying about this topic, you can click on this link: https://www.wordonfire.org/hope/. It is always best to hear it directly from the source.

Pope Francis
In an interview on Italian TV back in January, Pope Francis was asked how he imagines Hell. He responded by saying: " “What I would say is not a dogma of faith, but my personal thought: I like to think hell is empty; I hope it is.” As happened with Bishop Barron, this statement of the Pope's caused a bit of a ruckus in the church. The Pope was accused of believing in universalism and of being a heretic and so on.

My Comments
First, I think it is important to note that the Church has never definitively taught that anyone is indeed in Hell. The Church has a canonization process by which it definitively declares that certain folks are in Heaven, but there is no such parallel process of declaring that certain folks are definitively in Hell. Also, in Scripture, we see, in the Book of Revelation, in particular, that there are indeed souls in Heaven, but, there is no parallel passage in the Bible where it speaks of the souls inhabiting Hell. So, technically, neither the Pope, nor Bishop Barron, can be accused of saying something that is contrary to the doctrinal teaching of the Church. Which means, that when Bishop Barron says that we may "legitimately" hope that there is no one in Hell, I would agree if, by the word "legitimately," he means that by doing so you are not rejecting a defined teaching of the Church. So, there is that.

However, I have to disagree with both the pope and the bishop that there is any "legitimate" reason to hold to such a hope. At least, not if you are going to take Jesus at His word. There are just too many passages from Scripture, many straight from the mouth of Jesus, that point to the fact that people are in Hell. Let's look at several of them:

Matthew 25:46 - "And they [those who did not feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Jesus says that folks who, essentially, do not show love of neighbor, will be headed to Hell.

Matthew 13:40-41 - the Parable of the Good Seed and the Weeds. "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine. "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, He takes away...If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." I wonder what He could be referring to?

John 17:12 - " While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition [Judas], that the scripture might be fulfilled." Jesus calls Judas the "son of perdition" - the son of damnation. He says Judas was "lost". He also says in another place that it would have been better off for Judas if he had never been born (Mark 14:21). Well, if Judas suffered in Purgatory until the end of time before making it into Heaven, then it would not have been better for him to have never been born, because he eventually gets into Heaven to behold the beatific vision for all of eternity. Only if Judas is in Hell can it be said of him that he would have been better off not to have been born.

Revelation 20:12-15 - "And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done...all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire, and if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." John, in his vision, sees the Final Judgment. And, at the Final Judgment, he sees people being thrown into the lake of fire if their names were not found in the Book of Life. The lake of fire is Hell. And in the lake of fire, you are tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev 20:10). Was John's vision false? At least, the part where folks were being tossed into the lake of fire? If it was, then does than not cast doubt on the rest of His vision? But, Scripture is the inspired Word of God, so it can't be false. So, was folks being tossed into the lake of fire simply a metaphor? If it's a metaphor in regard to those who were being judged, then it must be a metaphor for Satan and his demons, too. Gotta be consistent. Which means, it ain't no metaphor, at least not in this case.

Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." There are folks who are going to be condemned. If there aren't, then Jesus should have said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved," and just left it at that. Or, He should have said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; and he who does not believe will also be saved."

Romans 2:6-9 - "For He will render to every man according to his works...but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every man who does evil..." Now, this doesn't say "eternal" wrath and fury, but when you put it in context with all the rest of these passages, it certainly seems to indicate that.

1 Corinthians 3:17 - "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him."

Matthew 25:30 - The Parable of the Talents. "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." Matthew 8:12 and 22:13 also speak of men being cast into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8 - "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Mark 9:42-47 - "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 - "... inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." They shall suffer eternal punishment.

Jude 1:7 - "...just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah, and the surrounding cities, were, as he was writing his letter, "undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." Now, unless you want to argue that it is the actual cities undergoing a punishment of eternal fire - which would be a pretty ridiculous argument - as opposed to the inhabitants of those cities suffering eternal punishment, then this seems to be saying that there are indeed people in Hell undergoing eternal punishment. Jude even says they serve as an "example" for those to whom he is writing his letter. Well, if they're not in Hell undergoing eternal punishment, then they can't be serving as an example of what he is saying.

Hebrews 10:39 - "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls." This seems to pretty clearly indicate that there are indeed those who shrink back and are destroyed and lose their souls.

And I could go on and on and on, but I think that's more than enough evidence to make my point. Now, some people will argue that when Jesus was talking about folks being tossed into Hell, or the outer darkness, etc., that all those times He said those things, He wasn't referring to what will happen, He was simply warning folks as to what could happen. But, to me, that makes no sense. If Jesus knows that no one is ever going to be in Hell, which He would have known - being God and all - then why would He throw out as a possibility that which He knows will never happen? It's actually not a possibility in that case. It's kind of like the boy who cries wolf, but in this instance, the boy knows that there is no wolf. I just can't see God holding something out as a real possibility, if He knows it's never going to happen. That would seem a bit disingenous on God's part. Maybe even a bit of a fib.

I mean, Jesus goes there so many times, and then all these other mentions of folks headed to Hell throughout the New Testament. It is unfathomable to me that this is simply some sort of scare tactic or such. And then there is this one other Scripture passage I did not mention above - “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Was Jesus lying when He said that? Was He just trying to put "the fear of God" into folks?

I've also seen arguments that say, "Well, these things Jesus is saying about Hell and wailing and gnashing of teeth and all that stuff are just idioms of speech common to the Jews of the time." So, when Jesus says that it would have been better for Judas that he had never been born, is that just some sort of Jewish idiom, like, "It's raining cats and dogs?" Jesus didn't REALLY mean it would have been better for Judas if he had not been born, that was just an idiom that meant, "Oh, man, Judas is in some deep kimchi now! Wait until I get ahold of him!"

To me, after reading all of these things that Jesus said about folks going to Hell, and the number of times He said them, and the context within which He said them; when Bishop Barron says that "we may legitimately hope that all people will be saved," it's kind of like a Baptist reading Jesus' words at the Last Supper in Matthew, Mark, and Luke - "This IS My body" - and reading John 6 - "My body is food indeed and My blood is drink indeed " - and reading 1 Corinthians 11:23-29, and then saying, "Well, I can have a legitimate hope that He was speaking metaphorically." Yeah, yeah...I know. Since Jesus uttered those words the Church has definitively spoken on the Real Presence, so it's not a perfect analogy; but, the thing is, the Baptist doesn't give a rip about what the Church teaches. And the point is, that when you read something Jesus says, and He says it over and over again - and it is pretty dadgum obvious from how He says it and how the folks around Him react to what He says, that He is speaking quite literally, but you then say, "Well, I can have a legitimate hope that He was speaking metaphorically," it just doesn't add up for me.

Finally, it seems a bit off kilter to me to say that you legitimately "hope" that all men are saved, but that you don't believe all men will be saved. I can understand that concept when it comes to something along the lines of the Cubs winning the World Series this year. I hope they win the World Series, but I don't believe that they will. I get that. However, it seems to me this thing with hoping Hell is empty but not believing it is, is a bit different than the situation with the Cubs. I mean, if I had the Word of God telling me, "The Cubs are toast." "The Cubs are going down in flames." "The Cubs are going to be tossed onto Waveland Avenue where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." "The Cubs are going to burn, burn, burn." Then I might not think it is very "legitimate" to say that there is even a smidgeon of hope for the Cubs getting to the World Series. Ya know what I mean?

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week!

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