Apologetics for the Masses #460 - We Pause for a Brief Interruption...

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Topic

Helping out a Catholic priest in Malaysia in his dialogue with a Protestant U.S. Army Colonel whose theology is pretty far out there.

General Comments

Hey folks,

One last reminder about my speaking, this coming Friday and Saturday (Oct 13/14), at the 11th Annual Marian Eucharistic Conference in Greenville, SC. Other speakers include Fr. Donald Calloway, Fr. John Bartunek, Fr. Thomas Petri, and Jim Wahlberg. Should be a great conference! If you would like more information and/or to register, click on this link: https://meconferencesc.net/registration/.

Introduction

The votes are in, and it was about 60/40 in favor of me continuing my takedown of Mike Gendron's virulently anti-Catholic Youtube video. So, I will do so, but I'm going to try to get the rest of it done in one fell swoop...if possible. However, because of car issues, and media interviews for the launch of the new book, I have not yet had the time to finish viewing Gendron's video. So, I am not going to be able to continue with Gendron this week.

However, I have been helping this priest in Malaysia with an email dialogue he is having with a lieutenant colonel (LtC) in the U.S. Army. The LtC seems to think that we have no need to ask God to forgive our sins more than once in our lifetimes. That one time covers all sins - past, present, and future. The priest wanted to know how I would respond to the LtC, and I sent a response.

So, as a little break from Gendron, I am going to feature that dialogue in this week's newsletter. I'm going to start off with the initial email I received from the priest and go from there. And, just so you know, I've changed the names of the priest and the LtC (to protect the innocent...and the guilty). Hope you enjoy...

(In the next newsletter - which will be in two weeks - I'll get back to Gendron's video for, hopefully, one last time.)

Challenge/Response/Strategy

From the Malaysian Priest
Dear John,

A friend of mine, a retired US army Lt.Colonel, a protestant, made a statement that the Lord's Prayer is not Biblical!

His reasoning: Christ's death on the cross paid all past, present & future debt. Asking God for forgiveness again and again doesn't make sense - it's redundant!

He said, "we can thank God", instead, but not ask forgiveness again & again.

How do I respond ?

Kindly, help me to answer him.

God bless,

Father Matt

My Reply
Padre,

First question for the Lt. Colonel is: Are you infallible? He might give a direct answer, might not. Regardless of what he says, just say, "No, you're not infallible, which means your interpretations of Scripture could be wrong, correct?" He will probably hem and haw here, and that's fine. You don't need an answer, simply smile at him and keep going...

Just say, "All I wanted to do, before we get into Scripture, is establish the fact that I agree with everything that Scripture says, but I don't necessarily agree with your private fallible interpretations of Scripture. In other words, I agree with the Word of God, not necessarily with the Word of [insert his name here]. Now, let's look at something from the Word of God..."

Then you can get into this:

The Church of Sardis, Revelation 3:1-6.

Point #1 - Jesus is speaking to the "church" of Sardis. The "church," in Protestant theology, is made up only of those who have been saved.

Point #2 - Jesus says their works are not perfect and he tells them to "repent". Why do they have to repent if the LtC is correct? Their sins have been paid for. No need to repent again after all of their sins have already been paid for and forgiven, if the LtC is correct. Makes no sense. They're saved already. They've already repented once. Why do they have to repent again?

Point #3 - Jesus is threatening that those who do not conquer (verse 5) could have their names "blotted out" of the Book of Life. Again, not possible if the LtC's theology is correct. Their sins have all been paid for. They've been saved. Their names are in the Book of Life for all eternity and cannot be removed, by the LtC's theology. Except, Jesus seems to think otherwise.

All you have to do is put this stuff on the table and then sit back and listen for the contradictions and deflections that will start coming out of his mouth.

A second line of reasoning, if you want to go there, is that if the debt for all of our sins - past, present, and future - has been paid, then why do we even need to ask God for forgiveness at all? The debt of the atheist has been paid, so he's saved. The debt of the Muslim has been paid, so he's saved. The debt of the Hindu has been paid, so he's saved. The debt is paid, it can't be unpaid, so everyone is saved.

Let me know if that helps...

God bless!

John

P.S. If he comes back at you with something else that you don't have a response to, just tell him, " Huh, let me think about that. I'll get back to you." And then send me another email.

Strategy
The strategy here is pretty much explained in what I said to the priest. Go directly to the issue of authority with the infallibility question, and then show, from Scripture, that the LtC is a bit off the mark with his private, non-authoritative, fallible interpretations of Scripture in regard to continual repentance and confession of sin being unnecessary, and also in regard to Once Saved Always Saved. Just plant some seeds by asking a question or two to get them talking, and then pay careful attention to the answers...there are going to be contradictions and/or the answers will simply get more and more bizarre and nonsensical and non-scriptural. I guarantee it.

From the Priest
Dear John,

I was about to send Lt.C, your response, however he responded to my initial mail. Kindly, read it and let me know the way to go about.

Thanks,

Father Matt

Email From the LtC (Bill)
Greetings Matthew,

It was great hearing from you. Thanks for sending Kevin DeYoung's article [Fr. Matt had sent Bill an article by Kevin DeYoung that addressed why we need to pray, "Forgive us our debts," in the Our Father].

Because DeYoung, as many other theologians, fails to understand that in order to understand the Scriptures correctly, one must consider when Jesus was addressing his audience (i.e. was it before or after the New Covenant of Grace). For example, if Jesus was teaching his disciples to pray today, he would tell them to admit/confess their sins and acknowledge that they justly deserve eternal punishment. Then tell God they are sorry for their sins, and finally thank and praise God for his forgiveness, through his Son, Jesus Christ's shed blood.

To ask God to forgive a Christian his sins, would show a lack of faith in the completed work of Christ's atoning sacrifice. If a person does not believe their sins are forgiven (past, present, and future) by Christ's shed blood, then he is not forgiven and does not have eternal life! Another example is Jesus' statement following the model prayer he gave his disciples in Matthew 6:15, "But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Certainly, this was true before the New Covenant; however today, God has forgiven Christians even this sin of omission because of the New Covenant.

I think DeYoung's article is his attempt to justify the continued praying verbatim the Lord's Prayer. All of the Lord's Prayer is applicable for Christians to pray today except the petition, "Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." Unfortunately, DeYoung does not give a reason for Christians to continually beg God to forgive them, rather than to thank and praise God for forgiving them. The word forgive is not a metaphor for the word sorry and to use it results in confusion.

The only verse in the Bible I have been given from clergy is 1 John 1:9 which they take out of context and manipulate into saying something different then what it means.

Interestingly, John placed verse 9 in between 8 which says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us," and verse 10 which says, "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." One should ask himself why did John place verse 9 in between two verses stressing the fact we are all sinners and need a savior. Therefore, if one does not believe that he is a sinner then he does not believe Jesus paid his sin penalty.

Since the New Covenant of Grace is a promise of God with mankind that whoever believes that Jesus is the Son of God and is an atoning sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, God the Father will forgive their sins and give them eternal life. In light of the New Covenant based on grace and faith, God therefore is faithful to his promise and just to forgive whoever realizes they are sinners and believe that the shed blood of Jesus purifies them of all sins. Match 1 John 1:5-10 with Jesus' prophesy in John 3:14-21 to better understand its true meaning. Note: none of these verses require mankind to confess/acknowledge their sins to God or to a specific person. Nor do they ask God to forgive their sins, but rather believe in Jesus' sacrifice for their sins. The above, and what Paul writes in Roman 10:8-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, provides a solid foundation on what the Bible says about receiving forgiveness.

If there is any guidance in the Bible written to the Christian churches that tells them to pray the Lord's Prayer or to ask God to forgive them let me know. The only thing I find in the Bible is that to be forgiven and saved is to BELIEVE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, plus nothing.

Again, thanks for the article and I hope things are going well with your church construction. Also, I look forward on hearing your views on the papers I gave you.

Warm regards,

Bill

My Response
Dear Bill,

Thank you so much for your email. It was very enlightening. I wish to respond to what you have said here on a paragraph-by-paragraph basis. However, before I do that, I have a few questions for you. And, what I am going to do is ask the questions and then answer them for you as I believe you would answer them. I hope you don’t mind me doing so. If I answer in a way that you would not have done, then, please, by all means, do correct me:

1) Question: Are you an infallible interpreter of Scripture...yes or no? (In other words, do you understand Scripture perfectly and never make a mistake when interpreting it, or are your interpretations of Scripture subject to mistakes?)

Answer: “No, I am not an infallible interpreter of Scripture.”

2) Question: Since you are not an infallible interpreter of Scripture, then there could be one or more errors in your interpretations of Scripture that were contained in your last email...yes or no?

Answer: Yes, there could be one or more errors in my interpretations of Scripture that I sent you in my last email.

3) Question: Do you suggest that I should stake the salvation of my immortal soul on your personal, fallible interpretations of God’s Word being correct...yes or no?

Answer: No, William, I believe you should read the Word of God for yourself and decide for yourself what it says in regard to salvation.

4) Question: I have read the Word of God for myself and I have to say that I strongly disagree with your private, fallible interpretations of the Word. Given that, did Jesus leave us any means by which an authoritative decision could be made as to what is or is not authentic Christian doctrine and practice when it comes to disagreements between Christians as to what the Bible actually says? Did Jesus leave us an authority by which we could definitively and authoritatively know the truth, or, are we simply left with one man’s private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation of Scripture vs. another man’s private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation of Scripture as to what the truth is?

Answer: ? Sorry, but I have no clue as to how you would answer this one.

Now, on to your email. My responses will be marked by a triple asterisk (***).

Greetings Matthew,

It was great hearing from you. Thanks for sending Kevin DeYoung's article.

Because DeYoung, as many other theologians, fail to understand that in order to understand the Scriptures correctly, one must consider when Jesus was addressing his audience (i.e. was it before or after the New Covenant of Grace). For example, if Jesus was teaching his disciples to pray today, he would tell them to admit/confess their sins and acknowledge that they justly deserve eternal punishment. Then tell God they are sorry for their sins, and finally thank and praise God for his forgiveness, through his Son, Jesus Christ's shed blood.

*** Since the “New Covenant of Grace” was not instituted until the Day of Pentecost, which was after Jesus’ ascension into Heaven, you seem to be saying - and please correct me if I’m not interpreting you correctly - but you seem to be saying that pretty much most of what Jesus said to His disciples and to the people during His earthly ministry - before the “New Covenant of Grace” - is essentially null and void in regard to the life of the Christian. The beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-12)...null and void. The Golden Rule (Matt 7:12)...null and void. Loving your neighbor (Matt 22:39)...null and void. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)...null and void. Doing the will of God (Matt 7:21)...null and void. Keeping the Commandments (Matt 19:17)...null and void. And on and on I could go. All I have to do is repent one time and believe, and that’s it...I’m saved.

***Yet, in Matt 19:20, Jesus tells the Apostles to teach others, “All that I have commanded you.” How do you account for the discrepancy between your words and Jesus’ words?

*** Finally, everything you said in this paragraph could be wrong since it is nothing more than your fallible interpretation, correct?

To ask God to forgive a Christian his sins, would show a lack of faith in the completed work of Christ's atoning sacrifice. If a person does not believe their sins are forgiven (past, present, and future) by Christ's shed blood, then he is not forgiven and does not have eternal life! Another example is Jesus' statement following the model prayer he gave his disciples in Matthew 6:15, "But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Certainly, this was true before the New Covenant; however today, God has forgiven Christians even this sin of omission because of the New Covenant.

*** “To ask God to forgive a Christian his sins, would show a lack of faith in the completed work of Christ’s atoning sacrifice.” Where in the Bible - please give me book, chapter, and verse - does it say this? This is not the Word of God, it is your fallible interpretation of the Word of God. “If a person does not believe their sins are forgiven (past, present, and future) by Christ's shed blood, then he is not forgiven and does not have eternal life!” And, where in the Bible - please give me book, chapter, and verse - does it say this? Again, this is not the Word of God, it is your fallible interpretation of the Word of God.

*** God’s sacrifice has paid the price for every man’s sins - “...the living God Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe,” (1 Tim 4:10) and “...He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world,” (1 John 2:2). So, all men have been redeemed, but not all men have been saved. Those who have been saved are those whose sins have been forgiven. And, a necessary part of the forgiveness of sin is to confess one’s sins to God and ask Him for forgiveness, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” (1 John 1:9). Why did St. John write that to his readers, all of whom were Christian? Why didn’t he say, “Since we have confessed our sins (past tense), there is no need to do so again?” How can one confess a future sin which one has not yet committed? Every sin has been paid for but not every sin has been forgiven. Only after the sin has been confessed and repented of is it forgiven. If a person only needs to repent and ask forgiveness once, for all the sins they will ever commit, then when they commit future sins, your theology says they have no need of confessing them or of repenting of them. Yet, if they are unconfessed or unrepented, they are not forgiven.

I think DeYoung's article is his attempt to justify the continued praying verbatim the Lord's Prayer. All of the Lord's Prayer is applicable for Christians to pray today except the petition, "Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." Unfortunately, DeYoung does not give a reason for Christians to continually beg God to forgive them, rather than to thank and praise God for forgiving them. The word forgive is not a metaphor for the word sorry and to use it results in confusion.

*** You want a reason for Christians to “continually beg God to forgive them?” How about because they keep sinning? When Peter asked Jesus how many times he needed to forgive someone...7 times? Why didn’t Jesus just say, “No, you only need to forgive them once and that covers all of their sins - past, present, and future?” Why does James 5:15 say that if a sick man (among the faithful believers) has committed sins he “will be” forgiven? Why doesn’t it say he "has already been forgiven and there is no need for further confession"? In 2 Cor 7:9, why did the believers in Corinth have to repent again? And why did Paul say that this “repentance” leads to salvation? Why didn’t he say, “Your past repentance has already secured your salvation, no need to repent any more?” In Rev 2:5, why does Jesus tell the church (the believers) in Ephesus to “repent” and to get back to doing the works they did at first, or He will remove their lampstand? In Rev 3:3 He tells the church (the believers) at Sardis to repent. Why, if all they ever have to do is repent once and believe? Why does the writer of Hebrews say that those Christians have “need of endurance” so as to “do the will of God” and then receive “what is promised” (Heb 10:36)? And on and on and on I could go. By the way, continually begging God for forgiveness does not preclude one from also continually thanking God for His forgiveness. In fact, one leads to the other.

The only verse in the Bible I have been given from clergy is 1 John 1:9 which they take out of context and manipulate into saying something different then what it means.

*** Don’t you mean to say that they take it out of context, in your fallible opinion? And that they manipulate this verse into saying something different than what your fallible opinion thinks it means? Your interpretation of 1 John 1:9 could be wrong, after all, couldn’t it?

Interestingly, John placed verse 9 in between 8 which says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us," and verse 10 which says, "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." One should ask himself why did John place verse 9 in between two verses stressing the fact we are all sinners and need a savior. Therefore, if one does not believe that he is a sinner then he does not believe Jesus paid his sin penalty.

*** I have no issue with anything you’ve said in this paragraph. But, nowhere does this paragraph say that all you have to do is confess your sins once and it covers not just your past sins, but your future sins as well. According to 1 John 1:9, sins have to be confessed in order to be forgiven. I cannot confess a sin that I have not yet committed. Therefore, there is a need to continually confess our sins, after we have committed them, and ask God for forgiveness of those sins. If you disagree with me, please tell me by what authority you claim me to be wrong?

Since the New Covenant of Grace is a promise of God with mankind that whoever believes that Jesus is the Son of God and is an atoning sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, God the Father will forgive their sins and give them eternal life. In light of the New Covenant based on grace and faith, God therefore is faithful to his promise and just to forgive whoever realizes they are sinners and believe that the shed blood of Jesus purifies them of all sins. Match 1 John 1:5-10 with Jesus' prophesy in John 3:14-21 to better understand its true meaning. Note: none of these verses require mankind to confess/acknowledge their sins to God or to a specific person. Nor do they ask God to forgive their sins, but rather believe in Jesus' sacrifice for their sins. The above, and what Paul writes in Roman 10:8-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, provides a solid foundation on what the Bible says about receiving forgiveness.

*** James 5:16 commands us to confess our sins to one another (he’s talking to Christians). And, the context is, of confession of sin after calling for the elders (the bishops/priests). Why, if what you’re saying is true? Also, why does Paul say that God will reward, with “eternal life,” those who “by patience in well-doing [good works] seek for glory and honor and immortality”? Why does 1 Tim 5:8 say that if anyone does not care for their family, then they are “worse than an unbeliever”? Why does Gal 5:6 say that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision or uncircumcision is of any avail, but that “faith working through love” is of avail? Again, on and on and on I could go.

If there is any guidance in the Bible written to the Christian churches that tells them to pray the Lord's Prayer or to ask God to forgive them let me know. The only thing I find in the Bible is that to be forgiven and saved is to BELIEVE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, plus nothing.

*** “Plus nothing”?! A number of the verses I’ve cited above would disagree with you on that. Let me ask you this, in John 15:1-6, Jesus says that He is the vine and His disciples are the branches. Do you believe that? And, if the branches don’t bear fruit (good works) then they are removed from the vine (Jesus) and tossed into the fire (Hell) and burned. Is that a “plus nothing”? And I don’t see anything here where Jesus said, “Of course, I’m only speaking about My disciples before the New Covenant of Grace takes effect. After the New Covenant of Grace takes effect, then this doesn’t apply any more.”

Again, thanks for the article and I hope things are going well with your church construction. Also, I look forward on hearing your views on the papers I gave you.

*** To sum all of this up, your theology basically discounts a large chunk of the Word of God as having no application to the life of the Christian, even though Jesus said, “Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Furthermore, you can cite no authority for your beliefs other than your own private, fallible interpretations of the Bible. I have to be honest and say that your words, and the lack of authority behind them, are not very convincing.

Strategy
Okay, the LtC never got the 1st response that I had sent to Father. So, in this response, I want to start off with the same question: Are you an infallible interpreter of Scripture? It gets to the question of authority. If you are not an infallible interpreter of Scripture, which I have never had a Protestant say that they were, then who are you to try to infallibly tell me that your fallible opinion of what the Bible says is in fact true? What authority do you have? How can you guarantee that what you're saying is true? You can't! Those 4 questions that I ask at the beginning of my response, you can use with pretty much every Protestant you engage with. And, you can do the same thing I did - answer the questions for them. By doing that, you practically force them to respond to the questions.

Then, throughout my response, I just keep asking, "By what authority?" Or, "You could be wrong, right?" Or, I quote him and then ask: "Where does the Bible say that - book, chapter, and verse?" I will never get an answer to those questions because he will not ever admit to being wrong or even admit to the possibility that he could be wrong in what he is saying, even though he will admit to being fallible (the Protestant Infallibility Paradox). And, because nowhere does the Bible say what he says it says. Which is why he not only will not answer my questions, but cannot answer them. So, use those questions as well - over and over and over and over again - when engaging in theological/scriptural discussions with Protestant friends, family, Facebookers, etc. The Protestant has no rational response to those questions. No logical or scriptural response to those questions.

Also, we see the LtC's theology start to go over the edge a bit here. He basically jettisons large sections of Scripture - all of the Old Testament and, it seems, most of what's in the Gospels - i.e., pretty much anything that happened before Jesus' death and Resurrection. He has to do that in order to get rid of a lot of those pesky passages that have action verbs in them...the ones that talk about folks being judged by what they've done, or by what they haven't done. You know, all those passages that contradict his theology.

It's kinda scary to me that this guy is a colonel in the U.S. Army. I mean, logic doesn't seem to be his strong suit.

Closing Comments

Again, no newsletter next week as I'll be at the conference in Greenville. So, back in two weeks...God willing and the creek don't rise. Please keep the conference in your prayers.

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