Apologetics for the Masses #456 - Mike Gendron's Anti-Catholic Video Eviscerated; Part 3 - Gendron's Response

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Topic

Taking apart Mike Gendron's Anti-Catholic Viral Video...Piece-By-Piece.

General Comments

Hey folks,

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Introduction

Two issues ago I began the dismantling of Mike Gendron's anti-Catholic YouTube video titled: Ex-Catholic Exposes the TWISTED Teachings of the Catholic Church. Well, he sent me his response to what I had said in the newsletter. So, as is my customary practice (which has never been reciprocated by a Protestant), I am printing his response, unedited, and in its entirety. I printed the first part of it in last week's newsletter. Here in this newsletter is the second part. Error fears truth; truth does not fear error.

So, I will have what was said in the original newsletter - the quotes from his anti-Catholic video and my comments on that - followed by his responses to my comments, and then my replies to his responses.

As I mentioned in the last newsletter, there are a couple of things in his comments I want you to pay careful attention to, because this will be true in most, if not all, of the conversations you have with Protestants. First, how he doesn't really respond to the main arguments that I make, and completely avoids some of the key arguments. Secondly, how he keeps giving us the Word of Gendron while he claims to be giving us the Word of God.

His comments will be in italics.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Gendron Anti-Catholic Video
5:07 - "And Paul told us that this would happen in 1 Tim 4: 'In latter times, some will depart from the faith and follow doctrines of demons.' The fingerprints are on the Roman Catholic Church because Paul defines one of the doctrines of demons they will follow: forbidding their priests to marry."

My Comments
Whoop, there it is! Just a few problems, though, Mike. If you don't mind, could you explain why the Word of God says these things will happen "in latter times", but the Word of Gendron says they happened immediately...from the beginning...in the former times? Does "latter times" mean " Ever since the Lord Jesus founded His church 2000 years ago"in your theology?

Another issue I have here, is that you are clearly identifying the "Roman Catholic Church" as the apostate church that has run parallel to the apostolic church, "Ever since the Lord Jesus founded His church 2000 years ago". Yet, at the 3:45 mark, as I mentioned above, you said this apostate church was made up of a number of "churches, denominations, and individuals". What churches and denominations has the Catholic Church been made up of, Mike? Could you name some of the Catholic Church's denominations? As a Catholic, I'm not familiar with any of my church's denominations, so please enlighten me on this. Or, what about these other "churches" within the Catholic Church? It sounds to me like you're describing Protestantism, but calling it the Catholic Church. So a little clarification (actually, a lot), would be most helpful on this.

Another problem with what you've said so far: Where exactly does 1 Tim 4 talk about forbidding "priests" to marry? Isn't that more of the Word of Gendron as opposed to the Word of God? You said that in 1 Tim 4 Paul "defines" one of the doctrines of demons as "forbidding their priests to marry". But, 1 Tim 4 doesn't actually say that, does it? 1 Tim 4:3 talks about forbidding "marriage", period. It doesn't say, "forbidding priests to marry". That's your private, fallible, non-authoritative opinion of what the verse says, right? By the way, just so you know, the Catholic Church does not forbid marriage. I was married in the Catholic Church. Lots of people I know were married in the Catholic Church. So, no, the Catholic Church does not forbid marriage. So, that's a problem with the Word of Gendron (i.e., your fallible interpretation) in regard to this passage.

Furthermore, the Word of God refers to this forbidding of marriage as a doctrine. That's another problem for your attempt to pin this passage to the Catholic Church and its practice of priestly celibacy. It is not now, nor has it ever been, a "doctrine" of the Catholic Church that priests must take a vow of celibacy before being ordained to the priesthood. It is what is known as a "discipline". It can be changed. Doctrines cannot be changed. Plus, you apparently are ignorant of this fact (or maybe not), but there are a number of married Catholic priests. The Eastern rites of the Catholic Church are full of married priests. That doesn't fit too well with the misinformation you were spreading in that video, does it? Plus, just so you know, there are even married priests in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. They are the exception, not the rule, but they do indeed exist. So, given that information, will you renounce and retract what you stated on this particular topic in that video? After all, "we hate what is false," right?

Are you not aware that the vow of celibacy that most priests in the Latin Rite of the Church take fits perfectly with what Jesus said in Matthew 19, about some who make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven? That's what a vow of celibacy does. It makes the priest a eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Do you believe that is a bad thing? By the way, Jesus said that right after He said that if you divorce your wife and marry another, you are committing adultery. You know, I've been told by some that the reason you left the Catholic Church is that you divorced and remarried and the church, like Jesus, did not recognize your 2nd marriage. So you left the church. Is that true? I'm giving you the opportunity here and now to state the accuracy of that claim. Also, the vow of celibacy that the priests take fits in perfectly with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7: "The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided." So, again, are you claiming that for a priest to take a vow of celibacy, in order to be undivided in his service of the Lord, that it is a bad thing?

To wrap this particular newsletter up, isn't this whole thing about there being a false "apostate" church that has run parallel to the true "apostolic" church, "Ever since the Lord Jesus founded His church 2000 years ago," just your way of trying to distract from all of the historical evidence for the Catholic Church being the church founded by Jesus Christ? What I mean is, that with this video, you have essentially admitted that the Catholic Church has been around since the beginning of Christianity, or "Ever since the Lord Jesus founded His church 2000 years ago." But, that's a problem for you, and for all of Protestantism. Apparently, you were encountering more and more arguments from Catholics that contained all the historical evidence that the Catholic Church is indeed 2000 years old. You could no longer ignore this evidence. So, instead of admitting that the Catholic Church might indeed be the church Jesus founded, you concocted this whole load of garbage about an apostate parallel church existing side-by-side with the "true" church. The apostate church being, of course, the Catholic Church.

But, you've got a number of problems with that. First of all, that is not a view that is supported by the Bible. You're having to really stretch some of your fallible scriptural interpretations to get to where you want to go. But, no matter how much you stretch, or twist, the Bible, it just doesn't say what you want it to say on this.

Secondly, we have all this evidence from history for the Catholic Church, but where is all the history, then, for this "true apostolic" church of yours that you claim was not the Catholic Church? All the early historical documents we have in regard to Christianity are, pretty much, all about the "apostate" Catholic Church. Where is the evidence, if it's not the Catholic Church, of this "true apostolic" church? Why was it the Catholic Church responding to all the early, as well as later, heresies? Did this "true apostolic" church of yours call any councils to combat heresies like was done with the Council of Jerusalem? Where was the "true apostolic" church? And, who were the leaders of this "true apostolic" church of yours, for example, in the 1st century? 2nd century? 5th century? 8th century? And beyond? Where are the centuries-old ruins of the church buildings of this "true apostolic" church? Where is the historical evidence? The archaelogical evidence? Not to mention the scriptural evidence?

Now, maybe you answer these questions later on in your video - I don't know, I haven't watched all of it. If so, I'll re-visit all of these questions in a later newsletter. But, again, it just seems to me that you've concocted this whole line of argumentation out of thin air in order to respond to the challenge presented by all of the evidence for the Catholic Church being 2000 years old and being able to historically trace its founding back to the time of Christ. Evidence so strong that you could no longer ignore it. Because, again, in this video, you have confirmed, in a back-handed sort of way, that you believe the Catholic Church to be 2000 years old and to be able to trace its origins back to "Ever since the Lord Jesus founded His church 2000 years ago." You may not realize it, Mike, but that is actually a step in the right direction.

Mike Gendron's Response
I think most people would agree that “later times” would include any time that comes after Paul wrote his letter. Apostasy takes place over a period of time when people no longer submit to the authority of Scripture and begin to follow after doctrines of demons, pagan traditions, apparitions of Mary, and false teachers. John, I would be curious to know how you would identify a false teacher.

You asked, What churches and denominations has the Catholic Church been made up of, Mike? I did not say they were in the RCC. They departed from the true church just as the RCC departed from the faith of the apostles. As I said, the RCC is not the only church that drifted into apostasy, other "churches, denominations, and individuals” have also departed from Christ and His Gospel.

Regarding 1 Tim. 4:1-3. "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage.” In the RCC priests are called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord (CCC, 1579). This sounds like they are not allowed to marry. Yes, I am aware of priests who were married in other religions have joined the Catholic priesthood.

John, I left the RCC when I realized it had deceived me about life’s most important issue, and that is “What must I do to become right with God and be saved from the punishment and power of sin.” After God saved me by grace through faith in the all-sufficient, substitutionary work of my Lord Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead, I wanted to honor God who seeks worshippers in Sprit and Truth (John 4:24). I left the RCC to worship God in a church that submitted to Christ and His Word as the supreme authority in all matters of faith and practice. After three years of seminary, I felt a great compassion for Catholics who were like the Jews Paul prayed for in Romans 10:1-4. They had a zeal for God but not according to knowledge, and not knowing the righteousness of God, they sought to establish their own righteousness. So many Catholics do not know that God’s righteousness requires perfect righteousness for entrance into heaven. Our only hope is to receive the gift of Christ’s righteousness by faith in Him alone (Romans 5:17).

It is easy to prove that the RCC preaches a different different gospel than the Gospel of God that the apostle Paul preached. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), the following six requirements have been added to the Gospel and are necessary for Catholics to be saved: baptism (CCC, 1256), sacraments (CCC, 1129), good works (CCC, 1477), the sacrifice of the Mass (CCC, 2180), penance (CCC, 980), and keeping the law (CCC, 2068). The apostle Paul defines the Gospel in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. “Now I make known to you, brethren, the Gospel… that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” Paul also warns anyone who would distort the Gospel. He gave a divinely inspired anathema. "Even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" (Gal. 1:8). Catholics must be warned that their clergy is condemned by the one true God for preaching another gospel. No one should believe the uninspired words of men unless they conform to the inspired Word of God (Acts 17:11). therefore by the authority of Scripture you would have to agree that the RCC has departed from the one and only Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You could also contrast the teachings of who Catholics believe was the first pope with the current pope. Peter taught salvation by faith in Christ alone (Acts 4:12). Francis teaches salvation apart from Jesus (CCC 841). Peter taught we are born again through the living, abiding Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23). Francis teaches we are regenerated through sacrament of water baptism (CCC 1213). Peter taught eternal life is a gift and secured by the power of God (1 Pet. 1:3-5). Francis teaches teaches “conditional” life is gained by sacraments and can be lost by mortal sin (CCC, 1035). Peter was an elder who submitted to Jesus as the head of the Church (1 Pet. 5:1). Francis believes he is supreme head and ruler of the entire Church (CCC 882).

John I hope you can see the evidence is overwhelming. The RCC does not resemble the church of the first century. It has departed from the apostolic faith, the Gospel and the true Christ who offered Himself once for all sin for all time such that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews10). I hope you can also see the importance of testing the uninspired words of men with the inspired Word of God. It is my prayer that you and your subscribers will follow the exhortation of Paul and examine yourselves to see if you have true saving faith (2 Cor. 13:5). I look forward to continuing our dialogue.

My Reply
For this part of my response, I’m going to quote what you said and then comment:

1) Gendron: “I think most people would agree that 'later times' would include any time that comes after Paul wrote his letter.”

Martignoni: "You think?" “Most people”? You think most people would agree on that?! Really?! Is that how you determine the authoritative interpretation of Scripture...by popular vote?! If so, since “most Christians” agree that the salvation is NOT by faith alone, and that once saved always saved is a false doctrine - does that decide the matter for you? You do realize that neither Catholics nor the Orthodox, nor a good number of Protestants, believe in Sola Fide or Eternal Security, right? So, by your standards, those dogmas must not be true, correct?

Also, if I wanted to claim that “later times” in 1 Tim 4:1 referred to the 1500's, by what authority does Mike Gendron tell me I’m wrong?

2) Gendron: “John, I would be curious to know how you would identify a false teacher.”

Martignoni: Mike, I identify a false teacher as anyone who teaches something contrary to what the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit teaches. Jesus taught with authority. His Apostles and disciples taught with authority. You claim to have no authority in your words. You, therefore, by the principles established in Scripture, and by your own words, are not a teacher in the Church of Jesus Christ. You are a false teacher.

3) Gendron: As I said, the RCC is not the only church that drifted into apostasy, other "churches, denominations, and individuals” have also departed from Christ and His Gospel.

Martignoni: But, the Roman Catholic Church is the only one that has been around, "Ever since the Lord Jesus founded His church 2000 years ago," right? It's the only one of the supposedly apostate churches that is 2000-years old. Which runs contrary to what Scripture says about something that is merely an undertaking of men: "...for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them." (Acts 5:38-39). Huh. You believe this undertaking of men is now 2000-years old! Wow!

4) Gendron: The RCC priests are called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord (CCC, 1579). This sounds like they are not allowed to marry.”

Martignoni: Taking a voluntary vow of celibacy is the same thing to you, Mike, as being "not allowed to marry"? One is by choice. One is by force. In other words, the “RCC priests” take a voluntary vow, before they are ever ordained, to make themselves "eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven," per Jesus Christ in Matthew 19:12, and you believe that to be a "doctrine of demons"?! They have voluntarily renounced marriage so as to serve the Lord with undivided attention, per St. Paul in 1 Cor 7:32-33, and you believe that to be a doctrine of demons?! The practice of the "RCC" in this regard is perfectly in line with the very words of Paul and of Jesus Christ Himself. Which means, Mike, that you consider the teaching of Jesus Christ to be a doctrine of demons. Nice.

Furthermore, as I stated, this is not a “doctrine” of the Catholic Church. It is a discipline. And, as I have shown, a scripturally based discipline.

Also, where does 1 Tim 4 say that it is “priests” who are forbidden to marry? You made that up didn’t you? You added to the Word of God. You made it the Word of Gendron. Are you not aware of the Gnostic heresy that appeared in the 1st and 2nd centuries which actually forbid marriage? Which is what Paul actually said!

Finally, it is not just that there are priests who were married in other religions who are now Catholic priests, there are priests who were married in the Catholic faith who are priests in the Catholic Church. It seems you aren’t all that educated in the practices of the Catholic Church. Or, is it that you are indeed aware that the Catholic Church has plenty of married priests, but you wanted to avoid informing your audience of that to better "prove" your lie?

5) Gendron: I left the RCC when I realized it had deceived me about life’s most important issue, and that is “What must I do to become right with God and be saved from the punishment and power of sin.”

Martignoni: "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" (Matt 19:16). And Jesus answered him, "If you would enter life, say a sinner's prayer and accept Me into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior." Is that what Jesus said, Mike? Do you agree with what Jesus actually said...yes or no?

6) Martignoni: I gave you the opportunity to put to bed the rumor that you left the Catholic Church because you had divorced and remarried. Since you chose not to do so, I will tell you that I had a guy actually send me Texas public records that apparently show you divorced your first wife, Janis, in 1982, after 13 years of marriage, and married your current wife, Mary J. Aragon (J. being for Jane) in 1984. On your website, it states that you left the Catholic Church in 1984. Huh. I guess that's just a coincidence, right?

The reason I am asking about this, is not to pry into your personal life, but to simply see if you are a man who truly abides by the Word of God. I am testing the spirits, as it were, as Scripture tells me to do. Jesus states quite plainly that to divorce your wife and marry another is adultery (Matt 19:9). Plus, Scripture says, "For I hate divorce, says the Lord the God of Israel," (Malachi 2:16). It is not an unheard of occurrence to have Catholics leave the Church because their desires of the flesh override their desires of the spirit. But, the Church abides by the words of Jesus and will not condone their divorce and remarriage. So, in anger and bitterness and with much malice, they leave the Church and then, after the fact, they supposedly find justification in the Bible for leaving and for their adulterous desires. Which, would explain a lot of your hatred towards the Church and motivation for attacking the Church as virulently as you do and for lying about what the Church actually teaches as you do.

So, again, I will ask: Are you divorced and remarried...yes or no? If, yes, how do you square that with the words of Jesus in Matt 19?

7) Gendron: “It is easy to prove that the RCC preaches a different different gospel than the Gospel of God that the apostle Paul preached. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), the following six requirements have been added to the Gospel and are necessary for Catholics to be saved:”baptism (CCC, 1256), sacraments (CCC, 1129), good works (CCC, 1477), the sacrifice of the Mass (CCC, 2180), penance (CCC, 980), and keeping the law (CCC, 2068).

Martignoni: To all of these I will reply with Scripture:

a) Baptism: John 3:5, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” This is speaking of Baptism. We know this because of the context (John 3:22) and because of the rest of the Scriptures - 1 Peter 3:20-21; Matt 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Ezek 36:25-27; Acts 8:12-13, 36-38; Acts 9:18; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Col 2:12; Titus 3:5-7

We become members of the Body of Christ though Baptism. We receive forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit through Baptism. We are saved through Baptism. Thus says the Word of God, regardless of what the Word of Gendron says.

b) Sacraments - Baptism is covered above. To keep this brief I’ll look at 2 others: Confession - John 20:21-23; Matt 9:6,8 - Scripture tells us men have been given the power to forgive sins. You have to have your sins forgiven in order to be saved, right? The Eucharist - John 6:53-58. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood will have eternal life. Eat My flesh and drink My blood or you have no life within you. Can you be saved if you have no life within you? What does "eat My flesh" and "drink My blood" mean, Mike?

c) Good works: Matt 25:31-46; what did the sheep do that the goats didn’t? Does Scripture say that the sheep believed and the goats didn't? Matt 25:14-30; what did the good and faithful servants do that the wicked and slothful servant didn’t do? They all "believed" in the Master, so what was the difference between being saved and not being saved? Rom 2:6-7; for what does God reward eternal life? Eph 2:10; if you don’t do the good works that God has set aside for you to do, can you be saved? Many, many more...

d) The Sacrifice of the Mass: see the Eucharist above. Also, Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of Me.” If we don’t, are we still saved?

e) Penance: Confession, see above. If our sins are not forgiven, can we be saved?

f) Keeping the Law: Jesus was asked, “What good deed must I do to have eternal life?” How did He answer, Mike? (Matt 19:16-17). Would you answer as Jesus did? Are you saying that Jesus was wrong?

Gendron: “Therefore by the authority of Scripture you would have to agree that the RCC has departed from the one and only Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Martignoni: Far from it, Mike. The “RCC” abides by the Word of God more faithfully than any other Christian faith tradition, and certainly more faithfully than you do. You are condemning the “RCC” not because it has departed from the one and only Gospel of Jesus Christ, but because it does not agree with the one and only Gospel of Gendron. You condemn the “RCC” not because it dissents from the Word of God, but because it dissents from the Word of Gendron.

8) Gendron: “Peter taught salvation by faith in Christ alone (Acts 4:12). Francis teaches salvation apart from Jesus (CCC 841).”

Martignoni: First of all, I have a $1000 check ready to donate to your "ministry" if you can find the words "faith" or "alone" in Acts 4:12. If they are not there, will you admit that what you just gave me there was the Word of Gendron and not the Word of God? Second of all, your ignorance of Catholic teaching is showing here, Mike. Paragraph #841 of the CCC in no way teaches “salvation apart from Christ”. #841 is not saying that Muslims are “saved”. It is simply saying that Muslims are part of God’s plan of salvation. Do you not agree that the Jews are part of God’s plan of salvation? If so, does that mean you believe in salvation apart from Jesus? Were the Assyrians and Babylonians not part of God’s plan of salvation when they conquered the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah, respectively? Was Pharaoh not part of God’s plan of salvation? Understand what you’re reading, Mike, before leveling false accusations.

9) Gendron: “Peter taught we are born again through the living, abiding Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23). Francis teaches we are regenerated through sacrament of water baptism (CCC 1213).”

Martignoni: They are teaching the same thing: CCC #1227 and #1228 (which reference Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12, Gal 3:27, 1 Cor 6:11 and 12:13, 1 Pet 1:23, and Eph 5:26).

10) Gendron: "Peter taught eternal life is a gift and secured by the power of God (1 Pet. 1:3-5). Francis teaches teaches “conditional” life is gained by sacraments and can be lost by mortal sin (CCC, 1035). CCC #1035 teaches that there is a Hell and that those who die in a state of sin go to Hell."

Martignoni: Mike, are you denying the existence of Hell?

11) Gendron: Peter was an elder who submitted to Jesus as the head of the Church (1 Pet. 5:1). Francis believes he is supreme head and ruler of the entire Church (CCC 882).

Martignoni: Ah, there you go...cherry-picking and deliberately taking something out of context. CCC #’s 85-87. “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.” Also, CCC #’s 424, 551-553, 754, 771, 789, 807, 864, 874, 1119, 1547 and many, many more. Stop lying, Mike. It is an ugly thing for someone who calls himself a Christian to do.

And, here are the questions you didn't actually answer, or never even bothered to address. I wonder why?

Unanswered Questions
1) In 1 Tim 4 Paul doesn't actually "define" one of the doctrines of demons as "forbidding their priests to marry," does he?

2) Does the practice of Catholic priests taking voluntary vows of celibacy so as to better serve the Lord conform to the words of Jesus in Matt 19:12 and of Paul in 1 Cor 7:32...yes or no?

3) Given that information - that there are indeed married priests in the "RCC" and that the priests take voluntary vows of celibacy in accord with Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7 - will you renounce and retract what you stated on this particular topic in that video? (After all, "we hate what is false," right?)

4) If you will not renounce your false statements about priestly celibacy, do you then claim that it is a bad thing for a priest to make himself a eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven and to be undivided in his service to the Lord?

5) Where is all the historical and archaeological evidence for this "true apostolic" church of yours that you claim was not the Catholic Church?

6) If there is a "true apostolic" church that is not the Catholic Church, then why was it the Catholic Church that was responding to all of the early, and later, heresies within Christendom? And where are all the historical documents written by members of your "true apostolic" church?

7) Did this "true apostolic" church of yours call any councils to combat heresies like was done at the Council of Jerusalem?

8) Who were the leaders of this "true apostolic" church of yours, for example, in the 2nd century? 5th century? 8th century? And beyond? Where are the centuries-old ruins of the church buildings of this "true apostolic" church?

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a safe and happy Labor Day weekend!

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