Apologetics for the Masses #347 - An Evangelical Pastor and Mary (Summary)

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The Sinlessness of Mary - A Debate With an Evangelical Pastor (Summary)

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Introduction

Hey folks,

I hope everyone is having a good Holy Week. In this issue, I continue my recap and summary of the dialogue I have been having with Evangelical Pastor Greg Smith - pointing out contradictions and/or logical inconsistencies in his arguments.

As I showed in last week's newsletter (http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/457-apologetics-for-the-masses-346-an-evangelical-pastor-and-mary-summary), it all comes back to the question of authority. Do we base our beliefs on the authority of any given individual's private fallible interpretation of Scripture, or do we base our beliefs on the teaching of the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit?

I will continue to focus on that theme this week and I will add another principle or two that you need to keep in mind when having discussions like this with non-Catholic Christians.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Okay, I am just going to start quoting Pastor Greg and highlight the contradictions and inconsistencies in his statements and how his positions seem to change as I point out trouble spots in his theology. For example, what does he say about being guided by the Holy Spirit?

"I study God's word and pray and am led by God's Holy Spirit.”

I have always had a problem with this kind of statement. If you are led by God's Holy Spirit, then why do you have to "study" God's Word? What doesn't the Holy Spirit know about God's Word that He can't teach you without you having to study?

Furthermore, Pastor Greg said this, “I am not infallible,” when I asked him if he is infallible in his interpretation of God's Word. Every single Protestant I have ever talked to, when asked that question, has said they are not infallible. Yet, they claim, as Pastor Greg does, to be guided, or led, by the Holy Spirit when it comes to interpreting God's Word. That has always bothered me. If you are led by the Holy Spirit when studying God's Word, then how is it you are not infallible in your interpretation of God's Word? That is a huge - tremendously huge - logical inconsistency! I mean, does the Holy Spirit make mistakes when He guides you?

And, this inconsistency results, once again, from an inconsistency between different parts of Protestant theology. In one part of Protestant theology, there is the absolute refusal to recognize that any man could be infallible. This is because they refuse to grant any concession to even the possibility that Catholics could be right when they claim infallibility for the Pope. So, they claim, "No man if infallible."

Yet, when it comes to their dogmas and doctrines, which are the result of private interpretations of Scripture, they cannot admit any possibility of error - especially when talking to Catholics! So they claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of Scripture when it comes to Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Once Saved Always Saved, the Rapture, and so on, and so they are infallibly right, and the Catholic Church, and therefore any and all Catholics who accept the teaching of the Catholic Church, are wrong. It's just that simple.

But, wait a minute. The Holy Spirit does not make mistakes. If, therefore, you are led by the Holy Spirit when individually interpreting God's Word, as you claim to be, then you are indeed infallible when interpreting God's Word, unless you believe the Holy Spirit could possibly make a mistake now and then. So, either the Holy Spirit makes mistakes, or you are infallible! But, no man is infallible! Whatever are we to do?! There is a conflict in Protestant theology here. Either the Holy Spirit makes mistakes, or the folks who claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit when interpreting Scripture are indeed infallible. Or...maybe, just maybe...there is a third possibility: the folks who claim they are guided by the Holy Spirit but that they are not infallible...are not really guided by the Holy Spirit. After all, the Holy Spirit wouldn't guide them into a logical contradiction, would He?

Which means, Pastor Greg has a real problem here in trying to reconcile his words with one another. And this leads to:

Principle #4: Protestants are fallible in theory; infallible in practice.

This allows them, on the one hand, to give lip service to the part of their theology about no man being infallible; but then, on the other hand, to never admit of even the possibility that they could be wrong in their private interpretations of Scripture (especially when talking to Catholics!).

But, Pastor Greg makes his theological inconsistency here even worse when he also claims the following:

“As an evangelical pastor, I preach God's word each Sunday under the authority of the Holy Spirit and as a priest of God.”

“Our authority to preach comes from the Scriptures alone.”

“This authority [to preach, teach, lead, pray, and shepherd] is delegated by Jesus Christ, the rock, the cornerstone, and the head of the church, directly to pastors and elders. Nothing else is authoritative.”

In other words, he is claiming not just that the Holy Spirit guides him when he interprets Scripture, but he claims the Holy Spirit's authority when he is preaching as well. And not just the Holy Spirit's authority, but the authority of Jesus Christ given to Pastor Greg "directly" by Jesus Christ Himself! Which means he must be infallible when he preaches and teaches and so on! Yet, he does not claim to be infallible in these things. How can Pastor Greg not be infallible if he is preaching and teaching with the authority of the Holy Spirit and of Jesus Christ?! Does that mean he could be preaching and teaching error under the authority of the Holy Spirit and the authority of Jesus Christ? Apparently so.

This conflict that results from Principle #4 is apparent in his words, although he doesn't recognize it:

“So, when evangelical pastors preach, we let the Word of God speak. We get out of the way of what is in the Scriptures. We (hopefully) do not try to come up with some clever message or pithy thing to say. We dig deep into the passage to find out what God’s message is to us. And then we let the Scripture speak.”

They dig "deep" into the passage to find out what God's message is. In other words, the passage isn't necessarily clear, but Pastor Greg will dig deep and then let "Scripture speak" - which, in spite of how noble that sounds, actually means he is going to study the passage to the best of his abilities and then give you his fallible opinion on what the passage means. He even admits elsewhere that he preaches his own opinion:

“I believe this tells us that all babies who die do go to heaven. Am I interpreting this? Yes. Do I know for sure? No. But, I believe that this is what Scripture says and I preach it this way.”

But then he turns around and says:

“As pastors, we are to preach this word, not what we think, but preach the Scriptures, His word. Pastors do not have any authority in their own reason or experience or what our church might think. The only authority that we have is in the Word of God. Only ‘Thy Word is truth’ (John 17:17).”

Do you see how confused and conflicted he is deep down? The problem is, he never stops to think about all of these inconsistencies and contradictions. "We are to preach this word, not what we think." "Am I interpreting this? Yes. Do I know for sure? No. But, I believe that this is what the Scripture says and I preach it this way." And ponder this statement:

I am not infallible. But, as I mentioned before, in my 35 minute long sermons, when I speak from the Scriptures, that is authoritative. I may quote facts from other reliable sources. They are most likely true [which means they could be wrong]. In my research, I take it to the point of trying to verify that it is truth. Do I know for sure? No. Is my sermon completely infallible? No. But when I read and command from Scripture, it is infallible.”

In other words, when he quotes from the Bible, he is speaking infallibly. Fine. Same could be said of anyone, even non-Christians, even atheists! The problem is, how much of his "35 minute long sermons" is him quoting from the Bible? Very little, if he is your typical Protestant pastor. So, when he asks, "Is my sermon completely infallible?" he is being a bit misleading. He is trying to make us think that his sermon is mostly, if not completely, infallible. When in fact, the exact opposite is true - his sermon is mostly fallible and only infallible when he quotes directly from Scripture. So, he will quote, infallibly, from Scripture, and then give you his fallible explanation of what Scripture just said. So, he doesn't really "get out of the way" of the Scriptures and he doesn't really "let the Scripture speak." He quotes a verse or two and then gives his flock the result of his fallible personal study of those verses.

He doesn't preach what he thinks. But, he preaches what he thinks. He doesn't know for sure. But he is guided by the Holy Spirit and preaches with the authority of the Holy Spirit and of Jesus Christ. He isn't infallible. But he is infallible.

And, let's go one level deeper to show even more confusion in his theology. I just quoted him on how when he preaches it is authoritative and infallible, in parts. Let's look at another quote on that particular topic from Pastor Greg:

“Under the authority of Scripture, we command those that hear to believe and obey. That is the authority God passes on to preachers to ‘preach the word.”

And earlier I gave you this quote:

Yet, when I told him that I rejected his claims of being called to be a preacher, a teacher, and a pastor because he had offered no evidence of any kind that he had any authority from God to do these things, this is how he responded:

“I told you about my call to be a pastor. Is that authoritative? No. And you point out the obvious that Scripture does not call my name out. Thank you John for explaining the obvious. But my call is compared to the final authority of Scripture. For example, do I meet the requirements of a pastor as found in I Timothy 3, Titus 1, and I Peter 5? Do I have the spiritual gifts of pastoring and teaching? All of this is compared under the final authority of Scripture.”

This absolutely blows my mind. On the one hand, he claims to have authority to command and to preach and to teach and that this authority was given to him directly by Jesus Christ; but, on the other hand, he admits that his call to be a pastor is not authoritative. Why does he admit that? Because I pointed out to him, even though he mocks me for doing so, that nowhere is his name found in Scripture. And, as he claims, all spiritual truths come from Scripture and Scripture alone. And I pointed out elsewhere that his "call" was in his heart, not in Scripture.

So, the question is, if his authority to pastor, to preach, and to teach came to him directly from Jesus Christ, then how is it he can say his call to be a pastor in not authoritative?! How can it not be authoritative if it comes "directly" from Jesus Christ?! Well, he can say it - and in fact he has to say it - because at some level he recognized the logical inconsistency in the things he was saying to me.

If he had said the call in his heart to be a pastor was indeed authoritative, then it is not the Bible from which all truth and all authority comes, as he was claiming. It would also come from your heart. But, he cannot admit that, as a pastor, he doesn't actually have authority to pastor, to preach, and to teach. However, if his very "call" to be a pastor is not authoritative, then he cannot claim to have received authority to carry out a calling that is not authoritative! That is a contradiction. A major inconsistency.

Are you understanding why it is so important to ask questions of the people you are dialoguing with, as opposed to just always answering the questions? And, when you ask questions, you need to pay attention to the answers and compare the answers with what was previously said. There will be inconsistencies and contradictions in what the other guy is saying...always! I guarantee it!

To be continued...

Closing Comments

I'll finish this summary up, hopefully, next week. In the meantime, I hope and pray that all of you have a deeply moving and consequential experience of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection over the next few days.

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