Apologetics for the Masses #345 - An Evangelical Pastor and Mary (Part 6)

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The Sinlessness of Mary - A Debate With an Evangelical Pastor (Part 6)

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Introduction

Hey folks,

Ready to continue to rock and roll with Pastor Greg Smith?! Below is his latest reply. This reply of his is in response to my comments in Issue #343, which can be found here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/452-apologetics-for-the-masses-343-an-evangelical-pastor-and-mary-part-4. It would probably be a good thing to read over #343 before you start in on this newsletter - just to freshen the neurons and to get back into the flow of the arguments.

Okay, first, I will give his latest reply, in its entirety, if you wish to read it without interruption. Then, I will repeat his comments but with my responses interspersed. So, if you want to save a little time and get right to the "good stuff," just scroll down to where you see his comments start to repeat.

We are going to start to get to the brass tacks...the core...the nugget...the essentials...of things here this time around. Enough dilly-dallying...

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Pastor Greg Smith

Sin of Mary

John, let me go into further detail for you. I am happy to explain this in more depth because it is so important. As a Christian, we are not saved from committing sins. We still sin. Each of us can fall into sin – various and all kinds of sins. For example, even though I am a Christian, I might be tempted in some circumstance and get drunk one night, or take drugs, or gamble, to use your examples. I might be tempted to lust. I might get angry at someone while driving. I might fall into any sin. I am not saved from sinning. When I sin though, I am convicted by the Holy Spirit and repent from my sin and get right with the Lord, seeking forgiveness. I go directly to the Lord because He is my great High Priest – I do not need to go to any man / human priest. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In the same way, Mary was not saved from sinning. She may have wrongly been angry at Joseph, or said a bad word in anger or disobeyed her parents or did not submit to Joseph. She still sinned.

You have offered no proof that she did not sin. Now, Mary and all Christians are saved from the penalty of our sins. In other words, we do not have to pay the eternal price of hell for any of our sins if we are children of God / if we have our faith in Him. And there is no such thing as Purgatory in the Scriptures. (It seems like you are afraid to debate this. I guess we only talk about what you want.) Jesus took that penalty of hell upon Himself when He died on the cross. We are either forgiven and go directly to heaven (absent from the body and present with the Lord) or we go to hell if we have rejected Christ.

Sanctification

You bring up the new subject of sanctification, so I will respond to your comments. You ask if you have to be made holy in order to be saved. You then ask, don’t you have to be holy in order to see Jesus. The moment you repent from your sins and put your faith in Christ, you become holy. At that point and forward.

When we were justified (declared righteous), we were also sanctified (recreated to become righteous). After being declared righteous, God begins to develop Christ’s righteousness in us, transforming us to be more like Christ, making us holy like Christ. This is what happened to Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness (Romans 4:1).

So, what does sanctification mean? In I Corinthians 2:1, Paul says that the church of God are those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Sanctification means set apart for holiness. The moment we become Christians, God sanctifies us. We are in the state of holiness. So, our position before God is of holiness. This is often called positional sanctification. The Corinthians believers could be called “saints” even though they were in a carnal state, as is clear from reading I and II Corinthians.

As Christians, we die to sin. We are buried with Him through baptism into death and raised up to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1 – 4). We are no longer slaves to sin (6:6). We are freed from the power or control of sin, even though we do still sin, we are no longer controlled by it – it no longer has dominion over us (7 – 14). We are set free from the control of sin (even though we still sin), with the result unto sanctification (6:22). This is often called progressive sanctification, the process in our daily lives when we are being conformed to the image of Christ (see Colossians 3:1 – 10), each day becoming more like Him.

Genesis 3:15

You are right. I should have paid closer attention to what you said. I apologize for misquoting you. You did not say that Mary would bruise the head of Satan. But, you still misinterpret the point of Mary’s sinfulness. You ask, “If there is divine enmity between Mary and Satan, how could she sin, since sinning puts you and Satan essentially on pretty good speaking terms?”

If that is not an inconsistent leap, I do not know what is! Is this the word of John making this conclusion? Where is the Scripture backing you up? Would you agree that there is enmity (hostility / hatred / conflict) between Satan and Christians? Of course. Is there enmity between Satan and Israel? Obviously as we both agree in the Revelation 12 passage. Would you therefore also conclude, by your mistaken logic, that Christians are without sin? Or Israel is without sin? Of course not! Therefore your illogical conclusion, that just because there is enmity between Mary and Satan, Mary did not sin is wrong. Just because Satan is at enmity with Mary, it does not mean that Mary is without sin.

Revelation 12

You say that I have a lack of depth in theology when I explain Revelation 12 to you, yet you come up with such a wild interpretation (again, you do not back it up with Scripture and so it is completely inconsistent with Scripture).

You say that the woman represents the church. Further, you say it is the church that brings Christ to the world, that gives birth to Christ. Where do you come up with this baloney??? Again, I ask you, when you speak the word of John, where are your Scriptural references??? You offer none to back up what you say. I hope your readers can see this!

John, the church did not begin until Jesus had already gone back to heaven and the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, 10 days after the ascension. Come on! You should know this. The church did not bring Christ into the world. This is heresy.

To try to make your point that the woman is not Israel, you ask who the rest of her offspring is who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony of Jesus. The Jews earlier in Chapter 12 are those Jews who leave Jerusalem and go into the wilderness (Matthew 24:15 – 26). The rest of her offspring are naturally the rest of Israel: believing Jews in Israel and around the world who did not flee. It also includes the 144,000 Jews (Revelation 7:1 – 8, 14:1 – 5).

Who is the woman?

The word “woman” is generic. Why do you think that every time it represents Mary in the passages you gave? That is absurd. There are 93 women mentioned in the Bible. The word “woman” is used about 367 times.

In John 2 and John 19, it does refer to Mary. In the Song of Solomon it is Solomon’s wife, the Shulamite. Obviously, it is not Mary! In Revelation 11:19, you bring up the ark of the covenant. I still do not understand how you stretch this to be Mary. Wow!!! The Word of John is going out of control! What did this piece of furniture symbolize? It was God’s presence, His atonement, and His covenant with His people. The earthly ark was only a picture of this heavenly one (please see and study Hebrews 9:23 and 10:20). Again I repeat the principle I hope you will learn: use Scripture to interpret Scripture, not the fallacies of John or the Roman Catholic church.

Spiritual death

Here are some verses for you to look at so you understand what spiritual death is, that it is different from physical death:

Ephesians 2:1: You were dead in trespasses and sin (obviously they are alive physically but dead spiritually)

Genesis 2:17: But the tree of knowledge of good and evil you hall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. Adam and Eve did not die in the day that they ate of it physically. They died spiritually.

Ephesians 2:5: Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together in Christ. We have gone from being dead spiritually to being made alive spiritually.

Elijah

I do not “rely” upon tradition in the same way as I “rely” upon the Scriptures. I look at the history of the church and the writings of the early church fathers, but do not rely on it as being authoritative. It may be true. You said, “I thought you went by the Bible alone.” John, the Bible does not tell us that Isaiah was sawn in two. History tells us this. Is history 100% reliable? No. Can we know for sure? No, because the Bible does not tell us. So we go with what history says and understand that it is probably true. There is no contradiction like you try to make it out to be.

Now, you said, “You are aware, are you not, that Jesus Himself tells us that in John the Baptist we have the return of Elijah (Matthew 11:10 – 14.” WRONG! Another of your misinterpretations! Let’s go to the Scriptures and see if you are correct. In Matthew 11:14, Jesus said, “if” you are willing to receive it . . .” Luke 1:17 says John will go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah. And John himself denied that he was Elijah (John 1:21).

If the Jews had believed and turned to Jesus as their Messiah, John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecies. BUT, THE JEWS DID NOT BELIEVE!!!

Further, I gave you Malachi 4:5 – 6, not as a proof text that Elijah would die, but that he would come in the future. John, you need to clearly read the Scriptures and understand that John the Baptist is NOT Elijah. “If” is a conditional statement. So, Elijah is to come. True, Revelation 11 does not specifically say that it is Elijah by name. But, look at Revelation 11:5 – 6 at what he does. This is an exact parallel to what Elijah did, unlike your comparison by coincidence of Mary in II Samuel. So, when I have preached this passage, I say that we do not know for sure that it is Elijah, but when putting together the rest of Scripture, it appears that this is Elijah. We will not understand all of prophecy until it takes place.

Then, you complain that I present the word of Greg as the Word of God. I do not. I present the Word of God and explain it to you multiple times using the Scriptures as proof. You do not back up what you say with the Scriptures in most cases. And when you do, like you have done here with John the Baptist, you get it completely wrong. You back up what you believe by tradition and the Roman Catholic church teachings. You do fascinate me though by what you come up with!

All men and women spiritually die and Babies

I have already explained above that Scripture refers to death as both physical death and spiritual death. I am not sure where in Scripture you come up with your ideas about babies. It is not from the Word of God.

Paul tells us that in Adam, all die (I Corinthians 15:22). Paul also tells us that through Adam’s sin, death entered the world. In Romans 5:17 – 18, by Adam’s sin, death reigned through the one, and judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, so that sin reigned in death.

We are born spiritually dead therefore because of Adam’s sin. Through Adam, we have already died spiritually. All people are dead spiritually. Babies are dead spiritually. Babies are born with a sin nature. They are spiritually dead because of Adam. And if you have raised babies, you know that that they rebel right away.

Where did you come up with the age of reason? Is that in Scripture? What is in Scripture is when David and Bathsheba’s baby son died, David said that he could not come to me but I shall go to him someday (II Samuel 12:23). I believe this tells us that all babies who die do go to heaven. Am I interpreting this? Yes. Do I know for sure? No. But, I believe that this is what Scripture says and I preach it this way.

Finally, in conclusion, all people are born spiritually dead. They are never alive spiritually because they already died while they were in Adam. However, they are only made alive in Christ, never to die again, when they put their faith in Christ and turn from their sins.

The rapture

The rapture can take place at any time (I Thessalonians 4:16 – 17). I believe Scripture teaches that it occurs before the Tribulation and before the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ (I Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 3:10).

Conclusion

John, I do not mean to be harsh. I apologize if it seems like I am. I only hope that you will base your views upon Scripture. Use the Scriptures to explain the texts in question. It is ok to look at tradition or writings from the early church fathers or commentaries, but know that they are not authoritative.

Greg

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Pastor Greg Smith

Sin of Mary

In the same way, Mary was not saved from sinning. She may have wrongly been angry at Joseph, or said a bad word in anger or disobeyed her parents or did not submit to Joseph. She still sinned.

My Response

Wow! Greg, you're doing an awful lot of twistin' and turnin' to avoid answering a simple and straightforward question. When people give ambiguous and indirect answers to direct questions, it's a pretty good indication that they don't really have an answer to those questions. But, I will give you one more opportunity to give a direct answer to a direct question: Are you a drug addict, or alcoholic, or compulsive gambler...yes or no? If you answer, "No," to any of those questions, does Jesus have anything to do with you not committing those specific sins...yes or no? Or, maybe you prefer answering this question: Have you ever been homeless...yes or no? If you answer, "No," does Jesus have anything to do with you not being homeless...yes or no? Have you ever committed the sin of apostasy...yes or no? If you answer, "No," does Jesus have anything to do with you not being an apostate...yes or no?

It's an easy line of thought to follow. Let me ask it this way, in case you still don't want to directly answer the specific questions posed above: Is it possible Jesus can save someone from committing specific sins, before that person ever commits those sins...yes or no? In other words, if a person is able to avoid a certain sin for their entire life...let's say, for example, the sin of committing murder...is it God's grace that helps them avoid committing that sin, or is it completely by their own power that they avoid committing that sin?

Pastor Greg Smith

Sanctification

My Response

Actually, you brought up sanctification. But here's the thing, Greg, once again you give me the word of Greg as opposed to the Word of God. "Positional sanctification"? What?! Since you go by the Bible, and the Bible alone, please give me the verse that mentions "positional sanctification"?

Furthermore, there is a problem with your theology here. On the one hand, you say that, "The moment you repent from your sins and put your faith in Christ, you become holy." You also said, "Sanctification means set apart for holiness." So, from this, we can gather that your theology teaches that the moment you repent and put your faith in Christ you become holy and you are sanctified.

But, we also gather from your statements above that when you are justified, you are "declared righteous." You are not actually "made" righteous, you are simply "declared" righteous. But, that's where the problem comes in. If God declares you to be righteous, then aren't you righteous by the fact that God declared it? I mean, does God tell lies? "Oh, Greg isn't actually righteous, but I am going to declare him righteous anyway." When God declares something, isn't that thing He declares then true? When God said, "Let there be light," there was light. Why? Because God declared it. It wasn't a case of God saying, "Let there be light," and then it was still dark. Or that God declared, "Let there be light," and there was still darkness but it was now considered "positional" light. But, in your theology, when God declares Greg is righteous, well, Greg really isn't righteous. So, God declares something to be so, but it isn't actually so.

Finally, on this point, could you give me the Bible translation that says in Romans 4:3 (not in 4:1 as you cited), that Abraham believed God and it was "imputed" to him as righteousness? I can't seem to find it in any of the more than 50 English translations that I've looked at.

Oh, one last question: You stated, "The moment you repent from your sins and put your faith in Christ, you become holy." Where does it say that exact thing in the Bible? Is that an infallible statement? If not, could you be wrong?

Pastor Greg Smith

Genesis 3:15

My Response

No, I would not agree that there is necessarily enmity between Satan and Christians and between Satan and Israel. Is there enmity between you and Satan when you sin? Was there enmity between Satan and Israel when Israel was worshipping false gods? Furthermore, does the Bible have God saying to Satan: "I will put enmity between you and all Christians?" Or, "I will put enmity between you and Israel?" No! There is one person, and one person alone, in all of Scripture that God is speaking of as there being enmity - divinely inspired enmity - between that person and Satan. And who is that person? The mother of the one who will crush the head of the serpent. And what is that woman's name? Mary.

Are you telling me that Satan is able to overcome the enmity that God Himself put between Satan and Mary? Really?! Satan is more powerful than God in your theology?

Now, I wish to ask you: Is your statement - "Therefore your illogical conclusion, that just because there is enmity between Mary and Satan, Mary did not sin is wrong," - an infallible statement...yes or no? If it is not, then could your statement be wrong...yes or no?

Pastor Greg Smith

Revelation 12

My Response

Are you deliberately trying to misinterpret what I am saying, or are you truly unable to understand my words in the context in which they were written? I mean, in order to think that I am espousing that which you are interpreting me to say, you must think I'm a total idiot. Are you that unfamiliar with Catholic teaching? Heresy you say? It is heresy to say that the church brought Jesus to the world? Who, may I ask, do you believe brought Christ to Europe? To Asia? To Africa? To North and South America? To Australia? Was it the church, or someone (or some thing) other than the church? Besides, is not Israel the Old Testament church? And the church the New Testament Israel?

You stated: "The Jews earlier in Chapter 12 are those Jews who leave Jerusalem and go into the wilderness (Matthew 24:15 – 26)." Where does it mention "the Jews" in chapter 12? It actually mentions "all nations," (verse 5). So, is your statement that I just quoted an infallible statement? If not, could you be wrong?

By the way, I notice you have taken to copying me by using the phrase, "word of John," as I have used the phrase, "word of Greg." Thank you. As they say, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." That tells me that you are at least beginning to recognize that so much of what you are trying to force feed me is the word of Greg as opposed to the Word of God.

Pastor Greg Smith

Who is the woman?

My Response

Again, wow! The Ark of the Covenant is a "piece of furniture"! So, if you had it in your house, where would you put it? Between the sofa and the love seat? Really?! This "piece of furniture" that was so holy that when a man touched it he died! I'm beginning to understand why you can't see so much of what is obvious in Scripture, as you can't see the parallels in 2 Samuel 6 and Luke 1 between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. That was a whole lot of Scripture I gave. Are you so blind that you cannot see the parallels between what was in the Ark of the Covenant and the womb of Mary? You yourself say the Ark was "God's presence." Was Jesus in Mary's womb not God's presence?

Where do I say that I think every time the word "woman" is used in the Bible that it represents Mary? I gave 2 specific instances, both of which are backed up by Scripture. Genesis 3:15 - the "woman" whose seed crushes the head of the serpent. Mary. Rev 12:1 - the "woman" who gives birth to the male child who will rule all nations with a rod of iron. Mary. Regarding my referencing the Song of Solomon, I did not say the woman in the particular verse cited (6:9) was Mary. I said the description there applied more to Mary than it did to Israel. Are you not familiar with typology?

Continually, and seemingly deliberately, misrepresenting another person's arguments does not speak well of the strength of your arguments. Now, you have said previously that all spiritual truths that one is to go by are to be found in Scripture, and only in Scripture. Could you please tell me, then, where I can find the spiritual truth that one is to "use Scripture to interpret Scripture"?

Pastor Greg Smith

Spiritual death

Here are some verses for you to look at so you understand what spiritual death is, that it is different from physical death:

Ephesians 2:1: You were dead in trespasses and sin (obviously they are alive physically but dead spiritually)

Ephesians 2:5: Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together in Christ. We have gone from being dead spiritually to being made alive spiritually.

My Response

It was very clear in what I said that I understand well what spiritual death is and that it is different from physical death. I believe you are again deliberately misrepresenting what I said so as to divert attention away from the fact that I highlighted a huge contradiction between your theology and the Bible, as I will further delve into below.

Pastor Greg Smith

Elijah

If the Jews had believed and turned to Jesus as their Messiah, John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecies. BUT, THE JEWS DID NOT BELIEVE!!!

My Response

Well, you're going around in circles here. John the Baptist "would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecies if the Jews believed." But, didn't a whole bunch of Jews believe in Jesus? On the day of Pentecost, you had 3000 believe. And more followed. Earlier, you mentioned all ofthe Jews from Rev 12 (of which none are actually mentioned), that they believed. So, was John the Baptist the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecies for those Jews? Besides, how would John the Baptist have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecies if the Jews (how many Jews?) had believed? Would he have been transformed into Elijah himself? Once again, the word of Greg is trumping the Word of God.

In Matthew 11, Jesus wasn't telling the Jews that John the Baptist fulfilling the prophecy regarding Elijah was dependent upon their believing in Jesus or not. He was telling them that John was indeed the fulfillment of the prophecy and essentially saying to them, "If you can believe it" - in other words, you might believe it you might not. That's why it says immediately after that, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear," (Matt 11:15). It was not a case of, "If you believe it, it will be true; and if you don't believe it, it won't be true."

Another thing, in your words above, you state: "So, when I have preached this passage [Rev 11:5-6], I say that we do not know for sure that it is Elijah, but when putting together the rest of Scripture, it appears that this is Elijah." That is a completely different attitude than when you first brought this passage up. Previously you stated: "And it is Elijah who will die physically in Revelation 11:7." No equivocation. No "maybe." No, "we do not know for sure." Why do you present it as a certainty in one place, and as only a possibility in another place? Is it because you are coming to realize that so much of what you are preaching here is indeed the word of Greg, and not the Word of God?

And, despite your protestations to the contrary, you do indeed present the word of Greg as the Word of God. Over and over I point out how what you claim, what you would have me believe to be truth, is not given to me as a quote from Scripture, but as what you believe a particular passage of Scripture means. You substitute your fallible interpretations for the infallible Scripture. You would have me gamble the fate of my immortal soul on your fallible, man-made, non-authoritative, private interpretations of the Word of God. And, quite often, you present things as being authoritative that aren't even based on any passage of Scripture.

Pastor Greg Smith

All men and women spiritually die and Babies

My Response

Okay, this is good. All babies are born spiritually dead, yet all babies go to Heaven. Which means, according to your beliefs, that one does not have to be made spiritually alive to go to Heaven. So, we don't really need to have faith in Jesus then, do we?

Now, getting back to you avoiding my arguments. You have previously stated that there are three deaths: 1) Physical death, 2) Spiritual death, and 3) Eternal death. The Bible only speaks of two deaths: 1st death - physical death; 2nd death - being tossed into the Lake of Fire (Rev 21:8). Please answer me: Should I believe the word of Greg, that there are 3 deaths, or should I believe the Word of God, that there are two deaths? Or, will you admit that you were in error and that there are, actually, only two kinds of deaths mentioned in the Bible?

Pastor Greg Smith

The rapture

My Response

Okay, the rapture occurs before the Tribulation. This rapture you cite in 1 Thes 4:16-17, doesn't it include a resurrection of the dead? When does the Bible tell us that the resurrection of the dead will take place? Before the Tribulation?

And, again, I notice you state, "I believe Scripture teaches..." So, you will admit, will you not, that you could be wrong here in your interpretation of Scripture?

Pastor Greg Smith

Conclusion

My Response

Greg, I do mean to be harsh. Not to you, per se, but to your arguments. To any and all error in your teaching and your belief. To any and all of your arguments that infallibly pronounce Catholic teaching wrong when you have no authority to make such pronouncements. In my theology, error has no right to exist. I don't coddle error in doctrinal teaching - big or small - by saying some doctrines are essential and some are non-essential, so that I can get along with other folks who say the same.

All error is from the father of all lies. All false doctrines are from the father of all lies. So I seek to obliterate error wherever I find it because the Word of God says that there are those who will be led away from the faith by the doctrines of demons. So, again, I recognize that you are not my enemy. The one behind your false doctrines is my enemy.

One last question, which is the question I have been asking all through this newsletter. Could you be wrong in any of the things that you have stated here that are contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church...yes or no?

Closing Comments

The core of any and all arguments between Catholic and Protestant - authority!!!

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