Apologetics for the Masses #318

Topic

Do Christians Need to Forgive in Order to Be Saved? Part 7

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General Comments

Hey folks,

Just wanted to let you know about this nifty little outfit called Romantic Catholic. They make some pretty awesome Catholic t-shirts and hoodies and such. They've got this take off on the Batman logo that has a dove - instead of a bat - that is pretty cool. They're having a 50% off sale that ends on Sunday. If you go to: http://www.RomanticCatholic.com, you can use the promo code - YearEnd2017 - to get half off your order. But, again, only good through Sunday...

Introduction

This is a continuation of my Facebook conversation with Ed Grossman that has been running through the last several issues and which is about to end. There may be one more with Ed, I'll just have to wait and see how he responds to my latest comments. The one benefit that has come from extending the conversation this long, has been that you were able to see how, the longer you let someone talk, the more they will contradict themselves, as Ed does over and over and over again.

As I mentioned in the last newsletter, Ed has essentially talked himself into a corner. I am going to start off with my previous comments, then Ed's response to those comments is below that, and my latest reply below that. If you would like to see the previous newsletter, or any of the previous newsletters in this series, you can do so here:

http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter

Challenge/Response/Strategy

John Martignoni
Thank you for finally attempting to answer my questions...although I wish your answers were a little bit more direct. But, I believe I can make do with what you have given me. (By the way, for this part of our discussion, I am going to focus on just one of your answers - I might get back to the other answers at another point in time if necessary.)

So, you finally admit that the branches of the vine that are mentioned in John 15, are indeed Christians. Makes sense, right? I mean, since the vine is Jesus Christ, and the branches are those that abide in Christ, it would be ridiculous to assert that non-believers could be connected to the vine of Christ and that they are abiding in Christ, wouldn’t it? Of course it would! Jesus even tells us that the branches are Christians, when He says to the Apostles, “You are the branches,” (verse 5).

Now, let’s look at what you said very carefully, because you have contradicted yourself, and the Bible, in a big way. You stated, “Anyone who does not abide in Christ is not a Christian.” In your theology that translates to someone who is not saved. I agree with you 100% on that. If a person does not abide in Christ, they are not saved. The problem with your interpretation of this passage, though, Ed, is you seem to think that the branches that are “cast forth” from the vine - the ones that don’t bear fruit - merely “lose fellowship.” And that when they “wither,” that means they just “lose vitality.” And that being tossed into the fire and burned means they will simply suffer a “loss of reward.”

Did the Holy Spirit guide you into that understanding? Because if He did, then He guided you into contradiction and error. By your own words, you agree that the branches of the vine, even the ones that are “cast forth” and wither and are burned, are Christians. But, the Word of God is very clear that the branches that are “cast forth” are those who do “not abide” in Christ. We see this very clearly in verse 6 of chapter 15: “If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch...”

So, on the one hand, you agree that the branches are Christians, and you contend that those Christians who do not produce fruit merely lose fellowship and vitality and certain undefined “rewards”. But, on the other hand, the Word of God tells us that the branches that are cast forth are those who do “not abide” in Christ. And you have stated that those who do not abide in Christ are not Christians, and are, therefore, not saved.

Which means you are contradicting yourself and the Bible! Again, the Bible tells us the branches that are cast forth are those who do not abide in Christ. And, you state that those who do not abide in Christ are not Christians (i.e., not saved). So, by your definition, the branches that are cast forth are not Christians, because they do not abide in Christ, and they are, therefore, not saved. But, you also said that the branches that are cast forth are indeed Christians, and they can't lose their salvation, but instead of losing their salvation, merely lose fellowship - even though they no longer abide in Christ.

So which is it, Ed? Are the branches that are cast forth Christians or non-Christians? Are those branches that are cast forth because - as the Bible tells us - they do not abide in Christ, and therefore produce no fruit, saved or unsaved? You can’t have it both ways.

Ed Grossman
I would of course have it both ways. In the one instance it is patently obvious that those who don't abide in Christ were never Christians. They went out from us because they were not of us. On the other hand there are actual Christians who do abide in Christ and end up losing fellowship and losing rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ.

In John 15:2 we see two types. According to the Bible Knowledge Commentary regarding the phrase "Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he cuts off. The phrase "in me" does not mean the same thing as Paul's words, "in Christ" Here it is part of a metaphor of the vine and seems to mean, "every person who professes to be a disciple (a branch) is not necessarily a true follower." A branch that bears no fruit is obviously dead.. Therefore like Judas it is cut off."

And then on the other hand every branch that bears fruit he prunes. Christians bear fruit, more fruit and then much fruit. If you say the burned branches are Christians who lost salvation then it contradicts too many passages, John 3;16, 36 and John 5:24, 10:28-29; Romans 8:1, Hebrews 10:14 and so forth.

John Martignoni
Oh my goodness! What a load of backtracking and doubletalk!

The first thing I want to make clear is this: I don’t give a rip what the Bible Knowledge Commentary has to say about John 15, or any other passage in the Bible for that matter! Is the writer of the Bible Knowledge Commentary infallible? Answer that for me please, Ed. Is he infallible? You seem to think he is. You are quoting a mere man and acting as if he is speaking with the authority of God Himself, when he isn’t. What authority does the Bible Knowledge Commentary have? I’ll tell you - NONE!

Whoever wrote the Bible Knowledge Commentary is, quite frankly, pathetically ignorant when it comes to Scripture, as I will demonstrate below.

Now, let’s review, shall we? First, you claimed that John 15:1-6 was nothing more than Jesus talking about the habits of 1st century vinedressers - “As to the John 15 scripture, one does not take a phrase from a verse that tells how vinedressers of old burned unproductive branches...”

Then, you say that John 15:1-6 is not about salvation, but is about the fruitfulness of believers: “John 15:1-6 is a parable about fruitfulness, fruit, more fruit and then much fruit.”

Now you’re saying that it is about salvation, or lack thereof for those that don’t abide in Christ - and end up "like Judas" - and that it is also about losing fellowship and “losing rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ.”

Yet, you also make the claim that “...parables are teaching one main point not several which we can dissect to pieces.”

So, you’ve claimed that the parable is about one and only one thing. That one thing is: How vinedressers of old burned unproductive branches. No, wait...it’s about fruitfulness, fruit, more fruit, and then much fruit. No, that’s not right, it’s about...losing fellowship and rewards. No, that’s not right, either, it’s about...claiming to be disciples but not really being disciples and ending up being cut off like Judas. So, which “one thing” is it about, Ed? You’re talking in circles and do you want to know why? Because you’re trying to twist Scripture to make it fit your beliefs, rather than making your beliefs fit Scripture.

Next, you say that the “Bible Knowledge Commentary” says that the phrase “in Me” in John 15 does not mean the same thing as the phrase “in Christ.” Sorry, Ed, but you know intuitively that the Bible Knowledge Commentary (BKC) is wrong, and I will prove it to you using your own words.

Here’s what you said in the comments you made before this last response of yours: “In the first instance a Christian does 'abide' in Christ. Anyone who does not 'abide' in Christ is not a Christian. v.7 if you abide in me and my words abide in you,ask what you desire and it will be done for you. (This means we will not be asking for the wrong stuff when we abide in Christ.)"

In that quote you equated “abide in me” with “abide in Christ.” Your words, Ed. Were you wrong to say that? After all, you contradicted what the Bible Knowledge Commentary said. This is a very important point, Ed, so please answer: Were you wrong when you interpreted “abide in me” to mean the same thing as “abide in Christ”? Yes or no?

Think, Ed, about what a ridiculous assertion the BKC is making when it says “abide in Me” does not mean the same thing as “abide in Christ”. When Jesus says, “abide in Me,” who is He talking about Ed? He’s talking about Himself. And Who is He? Jesus Christ. So, if “abide in Me,” doesn't mean "abide in Christ," then who is Jesus talking about when He says, "Me"? Fact is, they do indeed mean the same thing. Either that, or Jesus is not referring to Himself when He says “Me”. But who else would He be referring to, Ed?

Let’s examine every place that John 15:1-6 uses the phrase “abide in me” to see if the BKC’s interpretation makes any sense whatsoever:

John 15:4, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.” So, how exactly does the phrase “in Me,” mean - “"every person who professes to be a disciple (a branch) is not necessarily a true follower”?

John 15:5, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” So, where exactly does it say that “abide in Me” doesn’t mean the same thing as “abide in Christ”? Those who “abide in Me” are the ones who produce much fruit. And you yourself have said those folks are Christian. So, how can “abide in Me” not be the same thing as “abide in Christ”?

Ed, really?! I mean really, really think about this, and pray about it. You have got to know that what the Bible Knowledge Commentary is saying here is a load of crap! Why are you buying what it’s selling? I’ll tell you why: Because you don’t want to even consider the possibility that you could be wrong. You refuse to open yourself up to the Holy Spirit. And so you’re grasping at straws, no matter how ridiculous they are, and no matter how much they twist the very plain meaning of Scripture, in an effort to try and hang on to the anti-biblical dogma of once saved always saved.

Ed, think about this: You told me in your previous comments, that the branches that were cut off were Christians who didn’t produce fruit, and that the act of being cut off simply meant they were losing fellowship and “losing rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ.” No loss of salvation, though. Now, in these last comments, you’re quoting the BKC which says that the branches that are cut off are those that profess to be disciples but they are “not necessarily true followers,” and they are “obviously dead,” so they get cut off “like Judas.”

Well, unless you want to claim that Judas was saved and that his betrayal of Christ merely cost him some unnamed rewards in Heaven, then you are contradicting yourself...again!

Let’s review a few of your contradictions:

1) This “parable” has only one meaning. This parable has more than one meaning.
2) This parable is not about salvation. This parable is about salvation.
3) This parable is about the habits of 1st century vinedressers. This parable is about fruitfulness. This parable is about losing fellowship and losing rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ. This parable is about losing salvation like Judas.
4) The phrase “in Me” is the same thing as the phrase “in Christ.” The phrase “in Me” is not the same thing as “in Christ”.
5) To be “cut off” means you’re saved, but you simply lose fellowship. To be “cut off” means you are dead (unsaved) and are cut off in the same manner as Judas.
6) Those that do not abide in Christ are not Christians and not saved. Those that do not abide in Christ are Christians and are saved, they merely lose fellowship.

I could go on and on, Ed, but unless you hit your knees, and ask God to show you the truth regarding His Word, then it’s not going to do any good.

So, no, you can’t have it both ways, Ed, no matter how much you would like to. The Word of God says that the branches it is talking about as being cut off, are those that do not abide in Christ. They are disciples that do not bear fruit, as you have already admitted. But, you say at first that those who do not abide in Christ are not really Christians and are not saved. But then you say that these disciples in John 15:6 who do not abide in Christ are really Christians and simply suffer loss of fellowship and loss of rewards. But then you say that those that do not abide in Christ are truly dead and are cut off and suffer the same fate as Judas.

Ed, I ask you to truly consider how confusing, contradictory, and illogical your statements are. And that they are so, because the beliefs you are trying to justify cannot be justified, at least, not with the Bible.

One last thing: I also have to ask you to consider how much you have to add to this one little passage to make it say what you want it to say. Being "cut off" from Christ, the vine, simply means losing fellowship. Where does the passage say that? It doesn't. Where does the Bible ever say that? Being cut off from Christ merely means losing some unnamed rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ. Where does the passage say that? It doesn't. Where does the Bible ever say that? Being burned in fire merely means a loss of reward. Remember what Revelation says about adding to the words of this book...

Strategy

Essentially, as I mentioned above, the strategy here has simply been to let Ed talk, because the more he talked the more it became painfully obvious as to how badly he has been contradicting himself, and the Bible.

As I stated in the "Strategy" section of the last newsletter, pretty much the only option that was left to Ed "to avoid the inevitable conclusion that Once Saved Always Saved is false, is to try and make the argument that the branches of the vine that were taken away and burned were never really Christian." Which is exactly what he did.

But, as I said in the last newsletter, that is a ridiculous argument because if they were never really Christian, then how did they become branches of the vine in the first place? And why does Jesus call them "mine"? Does Jesus call non-believers "Mine"? And, if they are His, how then can they be taken away from Him? I mean, Ed claims that once you are a Christian you can never be taken from Christ. So, it is simply one contradiction after another.

Here is the problem that Ed is having: Protestant theology might seem to be systematic and consistent with itself and with Scripture when you confine your gaze to just one part of it or another, but when you put the whole thing together, it will contradict itself, and the Bible, over and over again. It is most definitely not systematic across the board. Which is why Once Saved Always Saved simply will not fit into John 15:1-6. It's like trying to fit a size 12 foot into a size 2 shoe...you just can't do it no matter how much you try.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week!

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