Apologetics for the Masses #317

Topic

Do Christians Need to Forgive in Order to Be Saved? Part 6

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General Comments

Hey folks,

For those of you non-Diocese of Birmingham residents who received my last email about the newspaper ad on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary that I put in the Christmas Eve editions of the Huntsville Times and Birmingham News - my apologies. That email was only meant for my local Alabama list of subscribers and I guess I hit the wrong button and sent it to my entire list of subscribers. Didn't mean to tease you by telling you about an ad that you had no way of actually seeing! However, since I had so many of you respond and wanting to see it, I am looking into putting a page on my website that will have all of my past ads (5 so far) and that will also allow me to post my future ads (7 more lined up right now). I will also look into being able to put my TV ads on the website once those are produced and aired. I'll keep you updated on all of that.

Introduction

This is a continuation of my Facebook conversation with Ed Grossman that has been running through the last several issues. Even though the conversation seemed to be going nowhere, there was a big breakthrough in this last response from Ed. He talked himself into a minefield. Ed's last response is below, with my reply below that. If you would like to see the comments of mine that Ed was responding to, you can do so here:

http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/405-apologetics-for-the-masses-316

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Ed Grossman
In the first instance a Christian does "abide" in Christ. Anyone who does not "abide" in Christ is not a Christian. v.7 if you abide in me and my words abide in you,ask what you desire and it will be done for you. (This means we will not be asking for the wrong stuff when we abide in Christ.) Casting out means a loss of fellowship, withering a loss of vitality, and burning a loss of reward. The fire is figurative according to my bible notes. Your focus on salvation or loss thereof is in contradiction to what Jesus' main point of teaching here is all about. Those who abide in Christ produce fruit, more fruit and then much fruit.

As to question 4 and 3 on who is right about misapplication of the teaching the bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. This might mean we are at different places in our Christian walk but God is leading so we both get to the place of maturity in Christ.

As to the question 5; I believe that we have limited "Freewill" as did Martin Luther. Under conviction we have the ability to choose or reject Gods offer of grace. When we decide at that point it is either to be a slave of Christ as per Romans 6:22 or to go back into bondage to self will and Satan. So there is limited freewill but not the kind of autonomy where we can get saved or unsaved every day or even several times in a given day. "For you are bought with a price and ye are not your own." We are also sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 1:13-14.

Then Galatians 5 does teach us we can as Christians live under a lesser way of life than grace to which we are called. Many Christians live their lives by a code or set of rules or by law instead of what they are called to which is grace. Those folks have fallen away from grace and choosing to live by law. They prefer a measurement system rather than living by the Spirit.

Finally in Galatians 5 Paul teaches that living under the Jewish system of laws and circumcision will not profit them since the one choosing such a system is a debtor to do the whole law, v.3 and has become estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace into the lesser principle of law and legalism.v.5 says righteousness comes by faith and circumcision (or Jewish law keeping) simply will not do. Chapter 4 of Galatians v. 28-31 tell us that the law/Hagar and her son have no inheritance with the free woman Grace/ Sarah. Cast out the bondwoman and her son for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. So brethren we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. (Sarah and her son of promise Issac) We as Christians are v.1 children of the promise. We do not pick up the lesser principle of law and attempt to live our lives by it. Rather we are transformed by faith.

John Martignoni
Thank you for finally attempting to answer my questions...although I wish your answers were a little bit more direct. But, I believe I can make do with what you have given me. (By the way, for this part of our discussion, I am going to focus on just one of your answers - I might get back to the other answers at another point in time if necessary.)

So, you finally admit that the branches of the vine that are mentioned in John 15, are indeed Christians. Makes sense, right? I mean, since the vine is Jesus Christ, and the branches are those that abide in Christ, it would be ridiculous to assert that non-believers could be connected to the vine of Christ and that they are abiding in Christ, wouldn’t it? Of course it would! Jesus even tells us that the branches are Christians, when He says to the Apostles, “You are the branches,” (verse 5).

Now, let’s look at what you said very carefully, because you have contradicted yourself, and the Bible, in a big way. You stated, “Anyone who does not abide in Christ is not a Christian.” In your theology that translates to someone who is not saved. I agree with you 100% on that. If a person does not abide in Christ, they are not saved. The problem with your interpretation of this passage, though, Ed, is you seem to think that the branches that are “cast forth” from the vine - the ones that don’t bear fruit - merely “lose fellowship.” And that when they “wither,” that means they just “lose vitality.” And that being tossed into the fire and burned means they will simply suffer a “loss of reward.”

Did the Holy Spirit guide you into that understanding? Because if He did, then He guided you into contradiction and error. By your own words, you agree that the branches of the vine, even the ones that are “cast forth” and wither and are burned, are Christians. But, the Word of God is very clear that the branches that are “cast forth” are those who do “not abide” in Christ. We see this very clearly in verse 6 of chapter 15: “If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch...”

So, on the one hand, you agree that the branches are Christians, and you contend that those Christians who do not produce fruit merely lose fellowship and vitality and certain undefined “rewards”. But, on the other hand, the Word of God tells us that the branches that are cast forth are those who do “not abide” in Christ. And you have stated that those who do not abide in Christ are not Christians, and are, therefore, not saved.

Which means you are contradicting yourself and the Bible! Again, the Bible tells us the branches that are cast forth are those who do not abide in Christ. And, you state that those who do not abide in Christ are not Christians (i.e., not saved). So, by your definition, the branches that are cast forth are not Christians, because they do not abide in Christ, and they are, therefore, not saved. But, you also said that the branches that are cast forth are indeed Christians, and they can't lose their salvation, but instead of losing their salvation, merely lose fellowship - even though they no longer abide in Christ.

So which is it, Ed? Are the branches that are cast forth Christians or non-Christians? Are those branches that are cast forth because - as the Bible tells us - they do not abide in Christ, and therefore produce no fruit, saved or unsaved? You can’t have it both ways.

Strategy

There was a whole lot in Ed's response that I could have gone after, but it wasn't necessary to do so, and probably won't be necessary to do so. There was a huge blunder in the very first part of his comments with what he said regarding John 15 and the vine and the branches. If you are handed a gift like that, focus on it, and it alone, so you leave the other guy no opportunity to avoid digging their own grave even deeper. If I had gone after him on John 15 and then also responded to what he said about limited free will, and about the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth (So how is it we come up with different truths if we're all guided by the Holy Spirit? And, if the Holy Spirit is guiding him into all truth, then why did he say he was not infallible? I mean, if the Holy Spirit is guiding me, then I am infallible.), and then dove into his painfully twisted logic on Galatians 5, that would give him something else to respond to, and would allow him to avoid discussing the trap he was in regarding John 15 altogether.

But, by responding to just that one point, I have focused the conversation in such a way that he either responds to it, or he comes off looking pretty bad - even in his own mind. Now, I'm not saying he won't make some sort of argument to try and work his way out of the trap - he undoubtedly will. But, he only has two directions to go: 1) He can backtrack and say something along the lines of: "Oh, I didn't mean to say such and such, what I meant was..." or 2) Say something even more bizarre and illogical and tighten the trap even more. If he chooses #1, then he is back to the question of: "Are the branches Christian or non-Christian? And he has no way to answer that now. None. If he chooses #2, then his struggle to come up with something that bears any semblance of sanity will actually be a seed being planted in his own mind, and hopefully his soul as well.

I mean, think about it: He actually said that a branch being separated from Christ, and thrown into the fire to be burned, means a person suffered a loss of earthly fellowship and some sort of heavenly "rewards." Really?! Where does the Bible ever say that being cut off from Christ means you simply suffer a loss of "fellowship," and that being thrown into the fire and burned means you suffer a loss of heavenly "rewards." And, what "rewards" are due any Christian? I thought you couldn't earn "rewards" as a Christian - a reward is something you earn for something you've done. Isn't Christ the One Who does all that needs be done, according to Ed's theology?

Here's the thing that I want to stress, though. Ed is in a trap. But, Ed is not in this trap that he is in because he personally made a blunder, or because I am a more skilled debater or more clever than him or anything of that sort. Ed is in this trap because the theology underlying his arguments is inconsistent and illogical. Because of his theology, he only ever had two choices in response to my line of questioning on John 15. Either: a) Give no direct answer, or b) Give an answer that will ultimately show his theological foundation to be built on sand.

So the "blunder" that Ed made was not a verbal blunder, or a blunder of personal logic, it was a theological blunder that he was forced to make by his beliefs. No way around it. John 15:1-6 absolutely destroys the arguments for Once Saved Always Saved (aka: the doctrine of eternal security). That's why I love it so. The only possible argument you can make to avoid the inevitable conclusion that Once Saved Always Saved is false, is to try and make the argument that the branches of the vine that were taken away and burned were never really Christian. But that is a ridiculous argument because if they were never really Christian, then how did they become branches of the vine in the first place?

Do you remember the argument Ed initially tried to make to divert the thrust of my questions on John 15? He said Jesus was just talking about the habits of first century vinedressers. Really?! At the Last Supper Jesus was discussing gardening? Oh my. That kind of response should give you a clue that this person is in serious trouble with this line of questioning. They know something menacing this way approacheth, and there is the uncomfortable realization that they have not the necessary weapons with which to defend themselves. So they try running down a different path - a path that goes nowhere. But if you stay the course, and focus the argument, then either they will be entrapped by their own theology, or they will simply shut down the argument and refuse to engage. Either way, you will have planted a seed...

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a merry and safe New Year's Eve, and that the rest of this Christmas Season, and all of the new year, brings many blessings for you and your loved ones!

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