Apologetics for the Masses #316

Topic

Do Christians Need to Forgive in Order to Be Saved? Part 5

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General Comments

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Introduction

Continuing the conversation I have been having with Ed Grossman on my Facebook page - John Martignoni and the Bible Christian Society. I'll start with Ed's response to my last post (which you can find here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/403-apologetics-for-the-masses-314) and then I'll give my reply to what he says.

For a full recap of the conversation, go to http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter and check out the previous 4 issues.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Ed Grossman
I do not think the bible is full of passages that point to Christians being able to lose their salvation. The Romans 11 passage you mention is about those who have belief being grafted in to the tree and the root. Those with unbelief do not qualify to be attached to the tree. The Children of Israel could not enter the promised land either because of unbelief. All the unbelievers had to die off before God would let them cross the river. That does not mean they believe today, unbelieve the next day and are on to believing the following days.

There is a transformation of the believer into life and into union with God a new creation which we cannot undo willy nilly. There are many passages such as John 10:28-9 that says the believers life with God is eternal and they will never perish. Heb. 10:14 says For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Another says He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to Him and the list goes on.

For instance what you quote in Galatians 5:2-4 says you can live by law or by grace and that it is possible to fall away from grace and totally live under law. Passages such as Hebrews 6: 4-6 are routinely misapplied. One must also read verse 9 as part of the context and we see the same thing when the passage in Hebrews 10:26-30 is misapplied and verse 39 is omitted from the context.

Because people sin does not make Christ the author. Our lifestyles change from one of a lifestyle of sinfulness and loving sin to a new lifestyle of righteousness and hating the sin that we do. When we walk in the Spirit we do not sin, when we allow ourselves to walk after the flesh then we will sin. Our destiny gets settle with our surrender to Christ. You are not your own you are bought with a price. Can we still sin? Yes when we walk after the flesh. That's why Paul called the Corinthians carnal Christians. They had not suffered in the flesh yet, enough to cease from sin.

John Martignoni
The first thing I will note, is that you still haven’t answered the question about the vine and the branches that I have asked several times so far. Why is that, Ed? So, I am asking you, once again, to answer the question:

1) If Jesus is the vine, as it says in John 15:1-6, who are the branches? Are they Christians or non-Christians?

It’s an easy question to answer, Ed, so please do take a shot at it.

Next, I have a few other questions for you. You stated that you “Do not think” the Bible has passages that show Christians could lose their salvation. So, my next questions are:

2) Why should I care what you “think”? You might be willing to gamble your salvation on your fallible interpretation of the Bible, but why should I?

3) Since you are not infallible, could you be wrong about your interpretation of the Bible, and it having verses that point to Christians being able to lose their salvation?

4) By what authority do you tell me that what you think is right, and what I think is wrong?

In a previous response, you stated the following: “Free will to some degree is an illusion....You have ‘free will’ when you hear the gospel and are convicted of the Holy Spirit at that time only you are free to choose...” Yet, you say in your last response that Christians can indeed sin. Well, if we do not have free will, then that means God is in control of our wills. And if we “sin” while God is in control of our wills, then yes it is indeed Christ who is responsible for those sins.

5) So, which is it: Is free will an illusion or not?

Finally, Paul’s Letter to the Galatians is written to Christians. These are the first four verses of Galatians 5, from the Revised Standard Version (a Protestant translation):

1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

6) Why does Paul tell them not to submit “again” to a yoke of slavery, if, according to you, it is impossible for them to submit again to a yoke of slavery once they have accepted Christ? Your beliefs make Paul’s words nonsensical.

7) Why is Paul telling these Christians that if they submit to being circumcised, Christ will be of “no advantage” to them? How can it be said of Christians that Christ will be of “no advantage” to them if they cannot lose their salvation?

8) How can a Christian be “severed from Christ” and “fallen away from grace” if they can’t lose their salvation? What does falling away from grace mean?

Strategy

If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again. Ed has yet to answer a very simple question that I have asked him over and over and over again about the vine and the branches from John 15. So, I am going to ask it again. The reason he won't answer it is because no matter what his answer is, it will put him in a very difficult situation. If he says the branches of the vine that is Christ are Christians, then he will have to admit that Christians can be cut off from the vine, which is in direct conflict with his belief of once saved always saved. But, if he says the branches are non-Christians, then he is essentially claiming that non-Christians can be part of the vine which is Christ - which is an absolutely ridiculous thing to claim. Which is why he won't answer.

Now, ordinarily, I would not give him 5 or 6 or 7 chances to answer a question. It would be 3 strikes and you're out - conversation over. But, the reason I am continuing this conversation is because I have an audience and I am using this conversation as a catechetical moment. But if it was just a one-on-one conversation, I would try 3 times and, if he still avoided the question, I would tell him we're done until such time as he answers the question. I highly recommend that being the tack you take in your conversations with non-Catholics.

The next point I make, which is actually the main point of any discussion between Catholic Christian and non-Catholic Christian, has to do with authority. Who does Ed think he is that he, an admitted fallible human being, can tell me that I am wrong about anything? If he's fallible, how can he be so sure that any interpretation of his, is accurate? And, accurate enough that he would have me gamble my eternal salvation on his fallible interpretation? And what authority does he think he has to be able to tell me that I am wrong about anything, but particularly about how I interpret the Bible? It is the height of hypocrisy to say on the one hand, "No, I am not infallible," but then act as if you are indeed infallible when it comes to interpreting the Bible. Hammer this point with anyone you get into a discussion with. Come back to it time and again.

Finally, I chose one thing that Ed said in his previous response, about Galatians, to comment on. And the only reason I did that is because it drives home the point I was making previously about biblical passages that show one can indeed lose their salvation. Please note that I did not respond to each and every thing that Ed mentioned. He is not directly responding to what I say and to my questions, so I have no obligation to respond to all the extraneous fluff he is throwing out there. I have seen too many email exchanges between Catholic and non-Catholic where the Catholic feels they have to respond to each and every sentence the non-Catholic throws out there. Not only does that result in unnecessarily long emails, but it generally allows the non-Catholic to deviate from whatever points you are making and to obscure the fact that they are not answering your questions.

So stick to the main points you are trying to make and force the conversation to go where you want it to go. If you can't guide the conversation into something that actually resembles an exchange of ideas - questions asked, questions answered; arguments made, arguments responded to - then, after 3 tries, just say, "Sorry, but until you actually attempt to answer my questions, there is no point in continuing."

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a very happy and holy Christmas Day and Christmas Season, and that the coming New Year brings many blessings to you and all of your loved ones!

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