Apologetics for the Masses #314

Topic

Do Christians Need to Forgive in Order to Be Saved? Part 4

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General Comments

Hey folks,

No talks coming up in the near future to mention, but I would appreciate your prayers for a couple of projects I have going on. First, I am hoping to finally send a proposal for a book to a publisher or two in the next few weeks. Second, I am working on developing an apologetics video series for high school kids. So, if you can spare a prayer or two for those things, I would be most grateful!

Introduction

Continuing the conversation I have been having with Ed Grossman on my Facebook page - John Martignoni and the Bible Christian Society. I'll start with Ed's response to my last post, in its entirety, and then break it down and comment on it paragraph by paragraph.

By the way, did you attempt the homework assignment from the last issue and try to come up with a response to Ed's last reply? If you did, see how it compares to my response. And, just so you know, I am not asserting that my way is THE right way...I'm just putting it out there as one possible response.

For a full recap of the conversation, go to http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter and check out the previous 3 issues.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Ed Grossman

Stating that a Christian can spend eternity in hell is problematic in so many ways. John 10 28-9 clearly states that Christians have eternal life and no one can pluck them from the Fathers hand. Is Christ going to hell for eternity since the Christian dies and is resurrected into Christ? A person who is transformed into life in Christ goes to hell? If one does not forgive properly they may lose rewards.

Jesus told a lot of stories that made a point, even about vines. I am the vine, you are the branches Your mistake with it is trying to take a parable that teaches about fruitfulness, fruit, more fruit and much fruit and dissecting phrases so you can apply it to another doctrine that the parable is not teaching about. Its like the old preacher who did not like hair knots on women and then taking a verse that says He who is on top of the house shall "not come down" and then preach a sermon on "Knot come down."

You would like for the sheep to be able to walk away but it does not say that. In fact it says no one (including you) is able to take them from the Fathers hand. In Romans we see the concept that we are actually "slaves " of Christ. Another place says ye are not your own, you are bought with a price. Another that we are sealed for the day of redemption. Free will to some degree is an illusion. You are in bondage to sin and self to begin with. You have "free will" when you hear the gospel and are convicted of the Holy Spirit at that time only you are free to choose and you might have several opportunities throughout your life to do so. If one accepts the conviction of the Spirit they go into bondage to Christ. If they reject conviction they go right back into bondage to sin and self..Both my and your interpretations of the scriptures are based on what we have been taught, or studied for ourselves and believe to be true based on the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Sadly, neither of us are infallible.

Ed Grossman
Stating that a Christian can spend eternity in hell is problematic in so many ways. John 10 28-9 clearly states that Christians have eternal life and no one can pluck them from the Fathers hand. Is Christ going to hell for eternity since the Christian dies and is resurrected into Christ? A person who is transformed into life in Christ goes to hell?

My Response
The Bible is full of passages that point to Christians being able to lose their salvation. Romans 11:17-24 - the branches (the Gentile Christians) that have been grafted onto the olive tree (Jesus Christ) will be cut off just like the original branches (the Jews) if they do not continue in His kindness. You can be cut off from Christ, at least, according to the Bible. And we see this again in Galatians 5:2-4 - Paul is talking to Gentile Christians, and he tells them that if they receive circumcision, as the Judaizers were saying they had to, then “Christ will be of no advantage to you.” And in verse 4 he says, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” According to you, Ed, one cannot fall away from grace once he has received it, one cannot be severed from Christ. So, I’m confused...should I believe you, or the Bible? There are a number of other passages just like those two: 2 Peter 2:20-21; Heb 6:4-6; 1 Tim 5:8; and others.

Strategy
I am responding to what he is saying, but I am not responding directly to the questions he asked because they are nonsensical questions. “Is Christ going to hell for eternity...?” Really? I never said such a thing or even implied it, so I’m not going to address it. If you get asked a ridiculous question, you don’t have to answer it. And please note, I keep asking him questions about the Bible. "Should I believe you, Ed, or should I believe the Bible?" Never let up on the pressure of making them defend their beliefs.

Ed Grossman
If one does not forgive properly they may lose rewards.

My Response
This is oh so eye-opening! Ed Grossman declares that when the Bible says that the Father will not forgive our sins - if we do not forgive the sins of others - then that means we “may lose rewards.” But, of course, not having your sins forgiven has nothing at all to do with salvation, right?! Where, exactly, Ed, does the Bible ever say that the Father not forgiving our sins means we “may” lose rewards? Does it say that in Matthew 6? Nope. So you must be getting that from somewhere in the Bible since you go by the Bible alone, right? And, exactly what kind of rewards will we be losing by not having our sins forgiven?

Strategy
I separated this one sentence out from the rest of what he said because it is so far out of bounds from any kind of reasonable interpretation of Matthew 6:14-15 that it needs to be highlighted. This is why personal interpretation of Scripture - without answering to any overarching authority - is so dangerous. He just equated God not forgiving our sins NOT with a loss of salvation, but with a loss of rewards in Heaven after we’re saved. Unbelievable! Where, Ed, does the Bible ever say such a thing? Quick answer: It doesn’t. So Ed is in a bit of a bind here.

Ed Grossman
Jesus told a lot of stories that made a point, even about vines. I am the vine, you are the branches Your mistake with it is trying to take a parable that teaches about fruitfulness, fruit, more fruit and much fruit and dissecting phrases so you can apply it to another doctrine that the parable is not teaching about. Its like the old preacher who did not like hair knots on women and then taking a verse that says He who is on top of the house shall "not come down" and then preach a sermon on "Knot come down."

My Response
Nice little story about the “old preacher,” Ed, but completely irrelevant. Problem for you is that we’re talking about what Jesus said...about what the Word of God says...not about hair knots. And you know what? You’re doing your best to talk all around the implications of what Jesus is saying in John 15 about the vine and the branches, because you can’t face those implications head on, can you? By the way, why do you think you know what I’m going to say about this passage even before I say it? Could it be that you see the same obvious meaning in this passage that I see?

Yes, Jesus is talking about fruitfulness...doing good works...on that you are correct. But, He is also talking about those who are not fruitful, isn’t He? Why are you avoiding that part of what He said? What happens to those who were attached to the vine but who did not bear fruit? What happened to them, Ed?

Why is it so difficult for you to answer this very easy and very straightforward question?! So, please, Ed, for the 4th or 5th time now, answer the question:

If Jesus is the vine, who are the branches? Are they Christians or non-Christians?

Strategy
Keep asking the question, or questions, that the other guy will not answer. Notice, he answered it partially - the “story” of the vine and the branches is about being fruitful. Yes indeed. But, he won’t go near the part about what happens to the branches that don’t bear fruit. That’s why he absolutely refused to answer my question about the identity of the branches. He can’t! At least, he can’t and also maintain any kind of consistency in his theology. This passage - John 15:1-6 - is one of the passages that non-Catholics have had the most trouble answering. I’ve asked it many dozens of times, and never once have I received a coherent, logically consistent, and scripturally consistent answer. You need to ask folks the same questions.

Ed Grossman
You would like for the sheep to be able to walk away but it does not say that. In fact it says no one (including you) is able to take them from the Fathers hand. In Romans we see the concept that we are actually "slaves " of Christ. Another place says ye are not your own, you are bought with a price. Another that we are sealed for the day of redemption. Free will to some degree is an illusion. You are in bondage to sin and self to begin with. You have "free will" when you hear the gospel and are convicted of the Holy Spirit at that time only you are free to choose and you might have several opportunities throughout your life to do so. If one accepts the conviction of the Spirit they go into bondage to Christ. If they reject conviction they go right back into bondage to sin and self.

My Response
Another very eye-opening statement from you. You only have free will when you “hear the gospel and are convicted of the Holy Spirit.” Where does the Bible say such a thing? And, “at that time only you are free to choose.” Again, where does the Bible say this? If you accept the conviction, then you lose your free will in bondage to Christ. If you reject the conviction, you lose your free will to “sin and self.” One more time: Where does the Bible ever say such a thing?

You keep saying a lot of things, Ed, that I cannot find anywhere in the Bible. Can you give me book, chapter, and verse for these beliefs? Also, I doubt you realize it, but you just made Christ the author of sin. Christians - people who you will admit are Christians - still sin, Ed. Yet, if they have no free will once they’ve accepted Christ, then that means Christ is making them sin. Are you really willing to make Jesus Christ the author of sin?

Your theology is getting more and more convoluted, Ed.

Strategy
The more you can get the other guy (or gal) to talk, the more they will say strange and crazy things. The reason for that is they have never been made to think through all the implications of what they believe. Their theology is only surface deep. If you make them plunge down a little deeper, they start contradicting themselves and saying things that make no sense - either from a logical perspective or a scriptural perspective. Keep asking questions!

Ed Grossman
Both my and your interpretations of the scriptures are based on what we have been taught, or studied for ourselves and believe to be true based on the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Sadly, neither of us are infallible.

My Response
So, since you admit that your interpretations of Scripture are not infallible, will you admit that anything or everything you have said to me could be wrong?

Strategy
This is actually the core of the discussion...of any discussion...because it goes to authority. Who has the authority to interpret the Bible? Why does Ed think his interpretation is better than mine, when his interpretation is just as fallible as my interpretation - at least, according to his theology. Is there someone, anyone, who can give an authoritative interpretation of the Bible, or is it every man for himself? But, will he overtly admit that he could be wrong? Odds are against it.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you had a wonderful Thanksgiving! And I hope this Advent affords you the opportunity to grow in holiness...

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