Apologetics for the Masses #313

Topic

Do Christians Need to Forgive in Order to Be Saved? Part 3

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General Comments

I want to thank all the folks in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Woodbridge, Virginia for coming out to hear the talks that I gave at Holy Family Cathedral and Our Lady of the Angels parish, respectively. I really enjoyed being there and I thank all of you for the wonderful hospitality you showed me!

And, if anyone is looking for a speaker for your parish or conference, just let me know and I would be glad to talk to you about it...

For those of you in the Huntsville and Birmingham areas, look for the Bible Christian Society's full page ad on Purgatory that will appear in this Sunday's editions of the Huntsville Times and Birmingham News (our ads are usually in the Sports section). If you don't have a subscription, you can get a copy at your grocery store. If you see it, let me know what you think...I'd like to be able to take some feedback to the Bishop.

Introduction

Continuing to analyze the conversation I have going with Ed Grossman on my Facebook page - John Martignoni and the Bible Christian Society. Ed is a sola fide once saved always saved type of guy, and just cannot get his head around the fact that sin - at least according to the Bible - has consequences. That, ultimately, is the problem with everything related to the dogma of sola fide - salvation by faith alone - sin has absolutely no consequences in sola fide, once saved always saved, theology. All you have to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus in sola fide theology. So, if I believe, I'm saved. Once I'm saved, I can't be unsaved. Which means, no amount of sin that I commit has any consequence for me.

And, if I don't believe, then I'm not saved. Which also means that no amount of sin I commit has any consequence. Since I don't believe, I'm already headed to Hell - it's my unbelief, not my sin, that is getting me sent to Hell. So, either way, as a believer or unbeliever, sin has no consequence. Does that fit with all the warnings in the Bible about avoiding sin?

Oh, one more thing about sola fide theology...love has nothing to do with your salvation. I don't have to love God, or my fellow man, and I'm still saved, because it is faith, and faith alone, that results in my salvation. Kind of a strange theology that says you can break the two greatest commandments and still be saved, don't ya think?

Anyway, I'll start with my last response to Ed and then give his reply to that, followed by my reply to him. Then I will give his next response as a bit of a homework assignment. How would you answer his response? I'll have my reply to him in next week's newsletter, so that will give you a week to think about how you would respond to Ed. No need to send me anything, this is just for you to think about what you would say if you were replying to Ed.

For a full recap of the conversation, you can look at the last two newsletters here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/401-do-christians-need-to-forgive-to-be-saved-apologetics-for-the-masses-312 and here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/400-do-christians-need-to-forgive-to-be-saved-apologetics-for-the-masses-311 before reading this newsletter.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

John Martignoni
Ed, let’s recap a couple of things: In Matthew 6:14-15, Jesus tells us that if we do not forgive the sins of others, the Father will not forgive our sins. You stated that you “do not regard this to mean salvation.” So I showed you a passage, from Matthew 18:23-35, that reinforces what Matt 6:14-15 says. It speaks of a servant who owed a huge debt to his master, a debt so big that he could never repay it. But, he begged the master for forgiveness and the master forgave him of his debt. So the servant was free from debt. He was forgiven.

Then, this forgiven servant did not forgive another servant who owed him a debt. Were there any consequences for this lack of forgiveness and lack of mercy towards his fellow servant? Yes, there were. The debt that he previously owed was reimposed and he was thrown in jail.

The closing verse of this story has Jesus telling us that our Heavenly Father will do the same to every one of us if we do not forgive our brother from our heart.

You stated that Matt 18 is “a simple passage that teaches us to forgive as God forgives, without measure,” and that the passage “is about forgiveness, not salvation.”

So, in both passages - Matt 6:14-15 and Matt 18:23-35 - you believe that they are not about salvation. I have a couple of problems with your private interpretation on that:

1) It does not fit with what is clearly stated in those 2 passages. Matt 6:14-15 clearly states that if you do not forgive the sins of others, then your sins will not be forgiven. And Matt 18:23-35 shows us that not forgiving the sins of others leads to punishment...you are handed over to the jailers.

Question: Given your interpretation of those verses, exactly what is the punishment a person receives if they do not forgive others of their sins? How is it they are handed over to the jailers?

2) Your interpretation does not fit with the rest of Scripture which very clearly shows that forgiveness has everything to do with salvation. As I mentioned previously, Luke 1:77 tells us that John the Baptist gave God’s people “knowledge of salvation,” and that was done “in the forgiveness of their sins.” Forgiveness of sins = salvation. Eph 1:7 says that “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses.” The forgiveness of our trespasses = redemption. If we are not redeemed, we are not saved.

Questions: Did Jesus come for the forgiveness of our sins or not? And is the forgiveness of our sins tied to our salvation or not? Can we be saved if our sins are not forgiven?

Next, regarding John 15:1-6, you did not answer my question: “Who are the branches of the vine? Are they Christians or non-Christians? It’s an easy question with an easy answer. You mention that the passage is about fruitfulness, and you are correct. But, it is also about those that do not produce fruit. What happens to them? What does it mean when it says they are cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire to be burned?

My last question to you here is this: Are your interpretations - about none of these cited passages from John or Matthew being about salvation - are those interpretations infallible, or could you be wrong?

Ed Grossman
You did agree with me about the potential for a Christian to have a problem in the forgiveness area and still be a Christian. If a person does not forgive as he should we find God who disciplines and chastens every son who he receives so they may become mature adults. As to the John 15 scripture, one does not take a phrase from a verse that tells how vinedressers of old burned unproductive branches and then turn that phrase into a doctrine on whether people can lose salvation especially in light of other teachings which are clear such as John 10:28-29.

John Martignoni
Ed, your words are in quotes, with my responses following:

“You did agree with me about the potential for a Christian to have a problem in the forgiveness area and still be a Christian.”

Yes, I did. And there is the potential for a Christian to have a problem in the worshipping false gods area, and with the not honoring their father and mother area, and with the murder and rape and bearing false witness and stealing and coveting and adultery and taking the Lord’s name in vain areas and all sorts of other sinful areas. And all of those sins - along with not forgiving others - could get Christians an eternity in Hell.

“If a person does not forgive as he should we find God who disciplines and chastens every son who he receives so they may become mature adults.”

Well, here’s the problem with what you’re saying: Matt 6:14-15 doesn’t say that if you don’t forgive the sins of others that the Father in Heaven will “chasten you so that you may become a mature adult.” It says that if you don’t forgive the sins of others, the Father will not forgive your sins. So, once again, I ask you: Can you get into Heaven if your sins are not forgiven? Yes or no? Did Jesus come for the forgiveness of our sins? Yes or no? Is the forgiveness of our sins tied to our salvation or not? Yes or no?

“As to the John 15 scripture, one does not take a phrase from a verse that tells how vinedressers of old burned unproductive branches and then turn that phrase into a doctrine on whether people can lose salvation especially in light of other teachings which are clear such as John 10:28-29.”

Do you really think Jesus was taking time at the Last Supper - right before His Passion and Crucifixion - to discuss the practices of “vinedressers of old”? I mean...really?! Jesus said He is the vine. So, I ask you again: Who are the branches?! Answer the question, Ed.

I agree 100% with John 10:28-29 - no one can snatch one of the Lord’s sheep out of His hand. However, nowhere does it say that a sheep cannot wander off voluntarily. Nowhere does it say that one of Jesus’ sheep loses his free will to reject Christ and lose his salvation (see Hebrews 6:4-6; Matt 13:19-22; Matt 7:21; Gal 5:4; Rom 11:20-22; Matt 6:29-30; 1 Tim 5:8; and many more).

Finally, I will ask once again: Are your interpretations of Scripture infallible? Yes or no?

Strategy

Ed didn't have a lot to say this time around, but notice that he didn't really answer my questions, so I am going to keep asking them until I get answers. Always, always repeat the questions that go unanswered. Don't let them ignore your questions. Now, he did mention my question about John 15, but his "answer" to that question is pretty ridiculous, as I point out to him.

Ed Grossman

Stating that a Christian can spend eternity in hell is problematic in so many ways. John 10 28-9 clearly states that Christians have eternal life and no one can pluck them from the Fathers hand. Is Christ going to hell for eternity since the Christian dies and is resurrected into Christ? A person who is transformed into life in Christ goes to hell? If one does not forgive properly they may lose rewards.

Jesus told a lot of stories that made a point, even about vines. I am the vine, you are the branches Your mistake with it is trying to take a parable that teaches about fruitfulness, fruit, more fruit and much fruit and dissecting phrases so you can apply it to another doctrine that the parable is not teaching about. Its like the old preacher who did not like hair knots on women and then taking a verse that says He who is on top of the house shall "not come down" and then preach a sermon on "Knot come down."

You would like for the sheep to be able to walk away but it does not say that. In fact it says no one (including you) is able to take them from the Fathers hand. In Romans we see the concept that we are actually "slaves " of Christ. Another place says ye are not your own, you are bought with a price. Another that we are sealed for the day of redemption. Free will to some degree is an illusion. You are in bondage to sin and self to begin with. You have "free will" when you hear the gospel and are convicted of the Holy Spirit at that time only you are free to choose and you might have several opportunities throughout your life to do so. If one accepts the conviction of the Spirit they go into bondage to Christ. If they reject conviction they go right back into bondage to sin and self..Both my and your interpretations of the scriptures are based on what we have been taught, or studied for ourselves and believe to be true based on the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Sadly, neither of us are infallible.

Your Response?

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a happy and holy Thanksgiving! Please keep the Bible Christian Society in your prayers, and we will be keeping you in ours. And please use the social media tabs at either the top or bottom of this newsletter to share with others...thanks!

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