Do Christians Need to Forgive to Be Saved? Apologetics for the Masses #311

Topic

Do Christians Need to Forgive in Order to Be Saved?

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Introduction

Below is a conversation that I have going on at my Facebook page - John Martignoni and the Bible Christian Society. There is a gentleman, named Ed Grossman, who is a member of the group, who is not Catholic, and who has been stirring things up a bit lately on the page. Not that stirring things up is necessarily a bad thing...it's not. However, the complaint the Catholics have been making is that Ed likes to preach, but he doesn't like to listen or learn. He is constantly putting erroneous things about Catholic belief out there, but he rarely, if ever, will respond to people's questions and comments and corrections in a direct and coherent manner. He "knows" what the Catholic Church teaches and he is not going to change what he "knows" no matter how much evidence is presented to him that what he knows is wrong.

So, I decided to engage in a conversation with him about salvation. Is it faith alone, or do works play a role in our salvation? Below is the conversation from beginning up until today. But, it's not just our conversation. After my comments, I have put in some "Strategy" remarks to let you know why I am asking and saying what I do. I hope you consider it worthwhile reading...and please pray for Ed...

Challenge/Response/Strategy

John Martignoni

Ed, I would like to start a conversation with you about faith and works. I wish to give you the opportunity to state fully and clearly what you believe and why you believe it. I will do the same. For this to be an orderly dialogue, we will take turns answering each others' questions. My first question to you is: Do you have to forgive the sins of others in order to be saved? Yes or no? (Please answer with a yes or no and then feel free to expound on your answer.)

Strategy

Simple, direct, and to the point. I want to hear what you have to say, and I will give you every opportunity to say it. I will answer your questions, but I expect you to answer mine. Here's my first question...it's a yes or no question (I love yes or no questions), and I ask that he answer with a yes or no, but I also give him the opportunity to expound on his answer.

The reason I ask that particular question about forgiving others, is because it puts Sola Fide (faith alone) believers in a rather awkward position, as you will see. If they say, "No, a person doesn't have to forgive the sins of others in order to be saved," then they are basically saying that you can be saved even though God has not forgiven your sins, because as Matthew 6:14-15 says, "If you do not forgive the sins of others, neither will your Father forgive your sins." But that's a pretty ridiculous position to hold seeing as how the Bible tells us Jesus died on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

But, if they say, "Yes, you have to forgive the sins of others in order to be saved," then Sola Fide goes right out the window, because forgiving the sins of others is a work. Which means you have to do at least one work in order to be saved. This is one of my favorite questions to ask Sola Fide believers. I have never...NEVER...been given any kind of coherent answer to this question.

Ed Grossman

I would say the answer to that is no. It is ideal that we forgive and we are to forgive 70 x 7 which means we are not to keep count and to forgive every time it is asked of us. It is what a spiritual person will do. I know several Christians who have problems forgiving others and of course it will hinder their fellowship with God. When we walk in the flesh and not in the Spirit it is possible to do many wrong things and hold wrong attitudes. We know the bible says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven. I do not regard this to mean salvation. We are a work in progress, imperfect and flawed, and God is not finished with our sanctification. Before salvation we are in bondage to sin and self rule. The only time we are free of this is upon hearing the word and conviction of the Spirit we can gain the freedom to choose God, otherwise we are held in bondage.

If we accept salvation we are transferred into Christs body, we have transferred our bondage from sin and self to Christ. We are not our own any longer we become bond slaves to Christ.(Luther wrote a good book on this, "Bondage of the Will"). As regards faith and works, we are saved by grace through faith not from ourselves the gift of God so no man may boast of his contribution to his own salvation. Salvation was settled at the cross in the person of Jesus Christ who by one sacrifice paid the believers sins past, present and future. We are transferred from death into the body of Christ by spiritual birth.

As a new creation God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure. Eph 2:10 says there are works ordained for us to do. These works will be the result of salvation not to obtain salvation. My question to you, is the one with unforgiveness not saved at all? [In other words: What about the person who does not forgive - does this of itself make him saved or lost? Or can he be a Christian with unforgiveness problems? We may have such diametrically opposing views that the discussion will not be profitable. What say you?

John Martignoni

"What about the person who does not forgive - does this of itself make him saved or lost? Or can he be a Christian with unforgiveness problems?"

     Okay, first let me address the 2nd question above. A person can indeed be a Christian with “unforgiveness problems.” But, here’s the thing, just because a person is a Christian, doesn’t automatically mean they are saved. Catholics believe, just as the Bible says, that one becomes a member of the Body of Christ (a Christian) through Baptism (1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27). But, just because you have become a Christian doesn’t mean you will necessarily be saved. You can still separate yourself from Christ through sin.

     And, in the case of one who doesn’t forgive, the passage from Matthew 6 is quite clear. If you do not forgive the sins of others, “Neither will your Father forgive your sins,” (Matt 6:15). So, unless you believe that a person can get into Heaven without having their sins forgiven, then a person who does not forgive the sins of others will not be saved.

     In Matt 18 we have the parable of the servant whose debts were forgiven by his master - he was saved! But, after having his debt cancelled, he failed to forgive another servant. So, was he still saved? Not at all. His master throws him in jail. “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart,” (Matt 18:23-35). Unless you think being “delivered over to the jailers” means being saved, then this servant’s unforgiveness towards his fellow servant led to one very unpleasant result.

     So, forgiving the sins of others does not automatically save you, but it is one of the necessary responses we have to make to God's free gift of salvation, if we are to hold on to that salvation. Because if you do not forgive the sins of others, your sins are not forgiven, as the Bible clearly states. And if your sins are not forgiven, then you do not enter Heaven. “Nothing unclean will enter it [the New Jerusalem - Heaven],” (Rev 21:27).

     Now, my question to you: You stated, “We know the bible says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven. I do not regard this to mean salvation.” You “do not regard this to mean salvation.” “You” don’t, but I do. The question is: What if you’re wrong and it is indeed referring to salvation? I mean, is your interpretation of that verse infallible? After all, forgiveness of sin and salvation are linked throughout Scripture. Jesus says His blood is poured out for the forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28). Does that not have to do with salvation?

     Luke 1:77, John the Baptist is described as giving “knowledge of salvation" to God’s people “in the forgiveness of their sins.” Forgiveness of sins is directly linked to salvation by the Bible, but you say that you do not regard forgiveness of sins to “mean salvation.” I really don’t understand where you’re getting that from. In Acts 26:18, Jesus says that one needs to receive forgiveness of sins in order to have “a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” No forgiveness, no place among the saved.

     Ephesians 1:7, “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses.” The forgiveness of trespasses is directly linked to redemption. Redemption has to do with salvation. I don’t understand where in the Bible you get that the forgiveness of sins is not linked to salvation?

Strategy

As I said, the question about whether we have to forgive sins in order to be saved puts folks in a bad spot. Do you see what he did? He stated that "he" does not "regard" Matthew 6:14-15 to be about salvation. Really?! He just appointed himself arbiter of the meaning of Scripture. Let's forget the fact that Scriptures over and over again link salvation to the forgiveness of sins, because Ed says there is no connection. But, if we can be saved without having our sins forgiven, then Jesus died for nothing! Not a very defensible position.

And remember to always keep Matthew 18:23-35 in reserve when you ask the question about forgiving the sins of others, because it fits like a glove with the Catholic, and common sense, interpretation of Matthew 6:14-15. Matt 18 gives us an example, from the mouth of Jesus Himself, of how not forgiving others will result in you yourself not being forgiven, and how it results in you being "delivered" to the jailers. I don't think that is a description of being saved.

All I did with my response was to take him to Scripture and keep taking him to Scripture. Folks, as Catholics, we win when you go to Scripture...every time! So, he now has several Scripture passages that he needs to explain. If Matt 6:14-15 is not about salvation, then what is it about? What does being delivered to the jailers in Matt 18 mean if it is not related to salvation? How, in light of Matthew 18 and the other passages above, can you think that forgiveness of sin and salvation are not related?

Also, I introduced infallibility. If you notice, everything he states, he essentially states in an infallible manner. I'm willing to bet he will not claim infallibility, but he will most certainly act as if he is infallible. He will never admit he could be wrong, even though he will admit he is fallible.

So, Will he directly answer my questions? No way. He can't. At least, he can't and still maintain any kind of consistency in his belief system.

Ed Grossman

Well, John, you start off your response with an oxymoron that one can be a Christian and not saved which of course is impossible. One is born of the Spirit or one is not. you follow that by saying that baptism makes one a Christian which is untrue also. Water baptism doesn't make anyone a Christian, rather it is a command that those who have faith may get baptized, see the Eunuch and the believers at Cornelius" house. With your forgiveness scenario you make salvation contingent on man and his ability to forgive well enough rather than the sacrifice of Christ. The only way to be clean is the righteousness of Christ given to you and not your own self righteousness, (the ability to forgive well for instance.) Jesus sacrifice for sin was complete and effective. Yours is not.

John Martignoni

Ed, with one exception, in everything you said in your response, you neither quoted nor referenced Scripture. And the one reference you did make - to the Ethiopian eunuch and Cornelius - didn't really fit with what Scripture actually says. Where does the Bible say about water baptism that it "is a command that those who have faith may get baptized"? Please give me book, chapter, and verse.

You state that it is an oxymoron to say that a person can be a Christian but not be saved. You provided no Scripture reference. Am I to believe you, or the Bible? And you did not respond to the Scripture verse I gave from Matthew 18 about the servant who was forgiven, and then after he failed to forgive another, he found himself not forgiven anymore and headed to prison. Which fits perfectly with the Catholic position and with chapter 6 of Matthew. I would be very interested in your explanation of that passage.

And let me ask you this: In John 15:1-6, it talks about Jesus being the vine. And it mentions that the vine has branches. Who are the branches of the vine which is Christ? Is that talking about Christians or non-Christians?

One last thing. You mentioned in a previous post Ephesians 2:8-9, and also Ephesians 2:10. In Ephesians 2:10 it mentions that God has prepared a set of works for us that we “should” walk in them. If we don’t do those works that God has prepared for us to do, are we still saved?

Strategy

He engaged in a good bit of what I call "Wave your hand" theology. You wave your hand and whatever you say is magically true. Forget about actually having to back up your argument with logic, or common sense, or even the Bible. I'm just going to wave my hand...

"Water baptism doesn't make anyone Christian?" Really? He completely ignored the verses I put out there to support what I said about Baptism. He doesn't counter my argument or tell me how I have wrongly interpreted this verse or that, he simply waves his hand and it is done.

Notice what else he did. He distorted Catholic belief. Whether that was intentional, or simply out of ignorance, I can't say yet. Look at what he said: "With your forgiveness scenario you make salvation contingent on man and his ability to forgive well enough rather than the sacrifice of Christ." How does the fact that we have to make a response to God's free gift of salvation by forgiving others as He has forgiven us in any way translate into salvation being contingent on man's ability to forgive rather than the sacrifice of Christ? It doesn't. Don't fall for it when folks do that. Call them on it, as I will call Ed on it in future responses.

One last thing. I brought up John 15:1-6 because I am going to show him, although he will not buy it, that Christians can indeed be cut off from Christ. John 15:1-6 is another one of my favorite verses. If puts Once Saved Always Saved folks into quite a bind, but it also blows a huge hole in Sola Fide.

Closing Comments

That's as far as we've gotten so far. I should have more for you in next week's issue. Please feel free to spread this on social media via the links at the top and bottom of this page. You would be doing me a big favor if you would share this far and wide. Have a great week!

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