Apologetics for the Masses - #275

Topic

Is Hell eternal?

General Comments

Hey folks,

I hope all of you are doing well. Just a few things:

1) If you would like to see and/or record my Blue Collar Apologetics series, it will be airing on EWTN at 6:30 PM (Eastern) beginning today and running through Friday.

2) I have taped 7 more episodes of Blue Collar Apologetics for EWTN. We still need to shoot the intro and outro skits, which will be done this summer, but we hope to have these new episodes on the air this Fall. So, please keep that project in your prayers.

3) For those of you in the Oklahoma area, I'll be speaking at the Cathedral in Tulsa on Wednesday, June 8th. I'd love to see you there if you can make it, so mark your calendars...

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Introduction

A regular reader of this newsletter recently sent me an article he had written entitled, Why God Will Destroy Hell. I thought it provided a good vehicle for talking about the question of whether or not Hell is eternal. Does God really punish people forever!? His article will appear first in its entirety, then I'll repeat it but with my comments interspersed.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

WHY GOD WILL DESTROY HELL

Many believe that Hell is forever. They believe God will assign all the wicked to this place where their torment will never end. Those who hold to this belief also usually believe the majority of mankind will end up there! I too used to believe this.

What’s the big deal?

Why is this not possible? Why does anyone believe this?

Let’s address the first question. The reason so many believe this is the Bible appears to teach this. There are phrases in the Bible that seem to make it quite clear that the wicked will suffer day and night for ever and ever!

So why would I say, “this is not only unlikely but an impossibility? What are the implications of this belief on the character of God?

First problem
The key reason this cannot be true is because God would not stand for it. It is a contradiction to His character. The primary characteristic of God is His Love and mercy. His love triumphs over our just reward. His mercy says to the woman caught in adultery, “neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more”!

He did not come into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved! There are many Scriptures that talk about how God will “reconcile all things to Himself”.
He does all things after the council of His will. No one can say to Him, “Why are you doing that?”

It is in fact His will that no one should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked. We may say we hope they burn in hell forever! This is not God’s desire! If we really think about it, this is repulsive to us as well unless we have an unforgiving heart. Jesus said, “If you will not forgive men their sins neither will your Father in heaven forgive you!”

The key to solving this conundrum is recognizing the misunderstanding of the words “forever” and “eternal”. It is also critical to understand that God alone possesses immortality. Man does not possess it unless God grants it to him, thus the saying, “corruption must put on incorruption, and mortality must put on immortality”. If it were true that all mankind possess immortality then those who did not make it to heaven would have to spend eternity somewhere, but nowhere in the Bible does it say all mankind have eternal or unending life.

Jonah 2:6, “Jonah went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever; yet hast Thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.”

The word forever in the Bible does not always mean without end. At times it does. At other times it is referring to what seems to us a very long time. Think about it. When you say “forever” do you always mean a time without end? No. We are told in the Scriptures that the last enemy God will destroy is death. In Revelations 20:14 says:

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

After this we are told all things are become new. There is not more pain or sorrow or death. When death and hell are obliterated all evil is gone. If the wicked were still suffering in hell, you could not say there is no more pain or sorrow. In fact, you would have to say that the sufferings and pain of mankind have never been greater!

Why is this such a terrible belief? First and foremost, it has terrible implication about the true character of God. You probably never really thought about this. I know I had not.

Think about it: Hell was created by God to serve His purposes. His purposes are always just. He also cannot separate His compassion and mercy from His justice. These characteristics are who He is. Can He require us to love our enemies and do good to those who do evil to us so that we can imitate Him, then turn around and assign these same people to a place where there is no rest day or night, where love does not exist and pain never ends? Would you do that? Are you more compassionate than God? I think not!

You see the problem?

Second problem
We are to be imitators of God as His dear children. If we think God would be so heartless as to assign the majority of His creation to a place of unending torment and torture, then can we not justify our cruel heartless actions towards others? Does not this perception of God perpetuate cruelty in our world?

Third problem
How can the lost turn to Christ the Savior and embrace Him with true love? Are those who are lost turning to Christ out of true love for Him or rather out of fear of the alternative of everlasting hell? Can we truly love a “God” who would assign many of our own friends and family to unending torture?

Some will say, “Well they chose hell”. Yeah right! No one chooses eternal torment! God alone possesses the power of life and death. If anyone spends unending torment in hell it is because God has placed them there and God see this as justice. I think not!

If you were assigned to a place of unending pain and torment would you not beg God to end your misery? What kind of a “God” would say to you, “Sorry you chose this place not me” and leave you there in your pain and suffering? Is this the God of the Bible? Is this the Christ who suffered for our sins?

Then rejoice in the Great God of love, mercy and compassion. A salvation that goes far beyond “all that we ask of think”. Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!

Craig

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Craig

WHY GOD WILL DESTROY HELL

What’s the big deal?

Why is this not possible? Why does anyone believe this?

My Comments

First, let's consider some of the "phrases in the Bible that seem to make it quite clear that the wicked will suffer" for all of time - phrases that are not mentioned in this article.

Rev 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image..."

Rev 20:10, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Matt 25:46, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to Hell, to the unquenchable fire."

2 Thess 1:9, "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

And those are just a few of the many passages that talk of the eternal and everlasting punishments of Hell. Maybe that's why so many people, including the Church, believe the Bible "appears" to teach that the wicked in Hell suffer tor all of eternity - because it actually does teach that.

Craig

First problem
So why would I say, “this is not only unlikely but an impossibility? What are the implications of this belief on the character of God?

The key reason this cannot be true is because God would not stand for it. It is a contradiction to His character. The primary characteristic of God is His Love and mercy. His love triumphs over our just reward. His mercy says to the woman caught in adultery, “neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more”!

He did not come into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved! There are many Scriptures that talk about how God will “reconcile all things to Himself”. He does all things after the council of His will. No one can say to Him, “Why are you doing that?”

My Comments

To answer his question about what the "implications of this belief on the character of God" are: Well, the implications are that not only is God loving, and merciful, and forgiving, but He is also just. The just penalty for sinning against eternal good - infinite good - is eternal punishment. Divine justice is not contrary to the character of God, rather it goes hand-in-hand with God's mercy. It presents no contradiction in God's character to say that He is a God of justice. What is going on here is that the writer of this article seems to be thoroughly imbued with the touchy-feely cumbaya theology of the past 50 years which has led many people to come to the false belief that Hell isn't simply a temporary condition a person may find themselves in, no, they have come to believe that there simply is no Hell at all! Craig hasn't gone that far, but he is only one small step away from that heresy.

After all, if God is all about love and mercy and forgiveness, and justice is some sort of afterthought to Him, then why have a Hell at all? I mean, isn't that kind of mean to send people to Hell, even if it's only for a few years? Does God really want people to suffer that much? Bad God. Mean God. My God is a God of love and my God would never send anyone to Hell. That is not an uncommon position in our current day and age, even among Catholics.

Yes, it is God's will that no one should perish: "God our Savior Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," (1 Tim 2:3-4). But, it is also God's will that no one should sin. Yet, people sin. It was God's will that Adam and Eve obey His command, yet they disobeyed His command. It was God's will that the Pharisees and lawyers get baptized by John the Baptist, yet they did not get baptized (Luke 7:30). In other words, even though something is God's will, it doesn't always mean that it happens as God willed it to happen. That's because we have free will and God will not impose His perfect will on our free will. So, even though it is God's will that all men be saved, that doesn't necessarily mean that all men are saved. This is a huge flaw Craig's logic.

Another huge flaw is this thing about the woman caught in adultery: "Go and sin no more." Jesus didn't condemn her, so that must mean God doesn't condemn anyone. Really?! The problem here is: What if she did go and sin again? What if she kept committing adultery? In Craig's theology, you can commit as much sin as you would like here in this lifetime, ignore God's Word as much as you want, be as evil as you want, and there isn't Hell to pay. Well, maybe for a little while. Is that not an offense against God's justice?

And, yes, the Bible tells us that Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it (John 3:17). But, it also tells us that He is the judge and all judgment has been given unto Him and that He will judge men according to their works:

John 5:22, "The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son."

John 5:28-29, "Do not marvel at this , for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

2 Cor 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body."

Heb 10:26-27, "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, thre no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful perospect of judgment, and a fury of fire will consume the adversaries."

So, does this mean there is a contradiction in the Bible? Not at all. When Jesus came the first time, He did not come to judge the world but to bring salvation to all men. But, He's coming back...

These passages apparently have been ignored by Craig. This is why it is so imperative that one read all of the Bible, in context, and with the mind of the Church. What is happening here is that Craig is imitating many of those in Protestant denominations by taking a passage here and a passage there, and having those passages trump all other passages based on his preconceived notions and beliefs.

Craig

Jonah 2:6, “Jonah went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever; yet hast Thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.”

My Comments

The problem here is that it is Craig who apparently gets to decide when "forever" means forever and when it only means a really long time. But the thing is, the verse that he cites to say that sometimes "forever" actually means a really long time and not forever, doesn't back up what he is saying. In Jonah 2:6, Jonah thinks he is indeed descending to the Pit forever, not just for a long time. "Forever" doesn't mean a really long time here, it means forever. The fact that it wasn't forever, thanks to God's mercy, doesn't change the meaning of the word. It does not mean "a really long time" in this context, it means "forever." Furthermore, Jonah is in the belly of the beast for only 3 days. So is Craig saying "forever" actually means 3 days in some instances? That's not a long time. He has completely and utterly missed what is going on here. The problem is, he has made himself THE authoritative interpreter of Scripture, and that is a really dangerous thing to do.

The "key to solving this conundrum" is to realize that there is no conundrum. When God uses the word "eternal," He means "eternal." Yes, we oftentimes use the word in a colloquial manner when we say things like, "That took forever." But the context tells us, pretty clearly, that our meaning is not literally forever. The word may be used that way somewhere in the Bible, I don't really know, but in pretty much all of the places that I looked, the words "forever" and "eternal," in context, mean without end. They are almost always used in the context of the next life - which is without end - or in relation to God - Who is without end.

For example, 2 Tim 2:10, "Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which in Christ Jesus goes with eternal glory." So, does eternal here mean, "a long time," but not forever and ever? Do we have salvation for only a set period of time and then we lose it somehow, just like Craig says eternal damnation is only for a set period of time and then its over?

Romans 16:26, "...but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God..." Is God only God for a really long period of time, but not for all of eternity?

John 10:28, "...and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..." I'll bet Craig believes that "eternal" means without end here. Why? Because it fits with what he wants to believe. It fits his preconceived beliefs and so he makes the Bible conform to what he believes rather than the other way around.

And, here is a verse that presents a really, really big problem for Craig: Matthew 26:24 - "The Son of Man goes as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." Well, if Judas is going to eventually end up in Heaven, then how could Jesus say that it would be better for him if he had never been born? If Hell is temporary, but Heaven is forever and ever - without end - then it makes no sense for Jesus to say that.

And here is a verse that presents an even bigger problem for Craig's interpretation of "eternal," Matthew 25:46 - And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." According to Craig, the first "eternal" must mean only a really long time, where the second "eternal" means forever and ever. I'll let St. Augustine answer that argument:

"How can eternal punishment be taken to mean a fire of long duration, and eternal life be believed to be without end, when in the very same place and in one and the same sentence Christ spoke of both together...? If both are eternal, certainly it must be understood either that both are of long duration but with an end, or both are perpetual and without end. For they are related as being equal: on the one hand, eternal punishment, and on the other, eternal life. But to say in this one and the same sense, eternal life will be without end and eternal punishment will have an end, is quite absurd."

I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of one of St. Augustine's arguments.

Craig

We are told in the Scriptures that the last enemy God will destroy is death. In Revelations 20:14 says:

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

My Comments

Again, a huge misinterpretation of the Scriptures, that results from him not taking Rev 20:14 in context. He apparently didn't read Rev 20:13 and Rev 20:15. There is a judgment going on at the end of time. Christ is the judge. All men are judged by "what they had done." Then Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Craig seems to think that Hades is Hell. And that when Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, then that's it, Hell is "obliterated," according to Craig. The problem is, Hades is not Hell. The lake of fire is Hell. We know this because in Rev 20:10, it tells us that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, where the false prophet and the beast already are, and that they will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever." Well, that's a pretty good description of what happens in Hell. Furthermore, in verse 15, Scripture tells us that those whose names are not found written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. Are these people "obliterated." Nowhere does the Church teach that anyone is obliterated, or annihilated - not Satan, not his angels, and not those who die with mortal sin on their souls.

In fact, the Church teaches that the pains of Hell are forever. In the Fourth Lateran Council and the Council of Florence and other councils, the Church has taught that the sufferings of Hell are eternal. The Catechism states as follows: "Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, 'eternal fire.' The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God..." (CCC #1035). In #1861 it states, "If it [mortal sin] is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell..."

The punishments of Hell last for all of eternity. Hell is not destroyed when Christ returns at the end of time. Craig's "interpretation" of the Scriptures makes a mockery of the judgment of Matthew 25, with the sheep and the goats. According to Craig's interpretation, the scene would necessarily play out as follows: Christ returns to earth. The dead are raised. The sheep are put on the right, and the goats on the left. The sheep are told they have eternal life and the goats are told they have eternal punishment. Then, Christ throws Death and Hades into the lake of fire, and that means there is no more suffering, so the goats who were just told they will suffer eternal punishment, now get to have eternal life. Sort of a "just kidding" moment that Jesus pulled on them.

What Craig, again, is not doing, is putting things in context. The verses that talk about a new heaven and a new earth and no more tears and no more death and no more pain is being addressed specifically to those who die in a state of grace, to the sheep who were on God's right hand at the judgment. To those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and so on. We know this because in verse 8 of Revelation 21, it says, "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." The second death is eternal damnation - it is not "obliteration" or annihilation. Interpreting the Scriptures as Craig does turns Jesus into a guy who contradicts Himself over and over again. His interpretation makes a holy mess of the Scriptures.

Craig

Why is this such a terrible belief? First and foremost, it has terrible implication about the true character of God. You probably never really thought about this. I know I had not.

You see the problem?

My Comments

This is one of those instances where it is best to remember the lines: "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct Him?" (1 Cor 2:16), and "Has God not made foolish the wisdom of this world?" (1 Cor 1:20). Sometimes there are things in our faith that we simply cannot wrap our minds around. So, since we can't understand it, does that give us the right to start making up our own beliefs? No, it doesn't. We still have to conform our beliefs to what God has taught us in His Word, in and through His Church, as opposed to conforming God's Word to our beliefs.

The question: "Are you more compassionate than God?" is not the correct question to be asking. The correct question is: "Are you more just than God?" Or, do you know more about mercy and justice than God?" The answer to all of these questions is, "No."

Let's say I wanted to have an affair - commit adultery - could I say, "Well, I did it because I stopped loving my wife and I fell in love with this other woman. So, I did it out of love. Will God condemn me to Hell just because I fell in love with someone other than my wife? God wouldn't do that, would He?" In other words, I would be way more compassionate to myself than God would probably be in this situation. So, does that mean that I'm more compassionate than God? No, it doesn't. It means that I am less just than God.

Craig

My Comments

This is a straw man argument. I have never heard of anyone, anywhere, at any time, try to justify their "cruel heartless actions toward others" by saying, "Well, I did it because there's a Hell, and if God can do it, then so can I." So, no, this "perception of God" does not perpetuate cruelty in our world. It is those who do not conform themselves to God's law for us that perpetuate cruelty in our world.

God allows those who have rejected Him to go to the place where they are separated from Him - Hell. If you had a child who hated you, who disobeyed your rules, who did harm to your other children, who did not want to be anywhere near you, would you be so heartless as to bind them and force them to sit in your presence every single minute of every day for their entire lives? How cruel would that be?! Or would you let him go, as the father did in the Parable of the Prodigal Son? If you had compassion, you would let him go. You would let him separate himself from you and from your family. And, you would let him suffer the consequences of his choices. That would be the just, and merciful, and compassionate thing to do.

Craig

Then rejoice in the Great God of love, mercy and compassion. A salvation that goes far beyond “all that we ask of think”. Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!

My Comments

"How can the lost turn to Christ and embrace Him with true love?" Gee, I don't know, maybe the same way the lost have been turning to Christ and embracing Him with true love for the last 2000 years? There is nothing in the teaching of Hell that precludes those who are lost from turning to Christ in love. Craig wants to place his mindset in the minds and hearts of every other man and woman on this planet. Not a good thing to do. I was lost, terribly lost, for 13 years. I was headed straight to Hell. Yet, I turned to Christ and embraced Him, eventually, with true love. Yet, I believe in Hell and that there are, as Jesus says, many who take the wide and easy path to Hell. According to Craig's theology, that isn't possible. So, how did I do that?

Furthermore, this thing about turning to Christ because you fear the pains of Hell - Craig presents this as somehow being a non-legitimate reason for turning to Christ. Who is Craig to say such a thing? Scripture tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Now, some will say, "Well, that means you fear offending Him because of your love for Him." Well, maybe, but I would say that is only one of the meanings the phrase has. Another of the meanings is to fear the punishments due to disobeying the Lord's commandments and not following His will for your life. Jesus, in fact, tells us as much, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell." Well, who exactly is it that can destroy both body and soul in Hell? Jesus, who is all-loving and all-merciful tells us to be afraid of the one who can destroy our body and our soul in Hell. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Getting someone to "fear the Lord" by recognizing that their behavior could cause them to suffer the punishments of Hell for all of eternity, is actually not a bad first step towards loving the Lord with all of your mind, heart, strength, and soul. You are not going to find that a lot of people can love, right off the bat, a Jesus that they do not know and may never have heard of. So, if the only legitimate way of getting people to turn to Christ is because they love Christ, well, you're going to have a tough time. But, if you can get them to start thinking about mending their ways of living because of the punishment due to their sins, and that becomes a first step towards a true and authentic love of Christ, where is the problem with that?

And, yes, Craig, those who end up in Hell are there because they chose to be there. Furthermore, the Church teaches that they do not repent of their sins once they begin suffering the pains of Hell. If that were so, don't you think God would have forgiven Satan and his angels by now? Satan, who is more intelligent, and who knows about God with more certainty than any of us here on earth, still hasn't repented, has he? No, in fact, he is doing just the opposite of repenting. He is trying his best to have as many of God's children as possible wind up in Hell with him. Do you think God is thinking, "Well, that Satan, even though he's doing everything he can to thwart my purposes for mankind, I guess he's suffered enough, maybe it's time to forgive him." If you believe someone will repent once they have tasted the punishments of Hell, then why haven't Satan and his angels repented? Why haven't they cried to God for mercy? The same is true of those among men who choose Hell over Heaven. They will not seek repentance. They will not cry out for mercy. They will spend eternity in Hell because they choose that over the alternative.

To wrap this up, the overall message here is that Craig, a Catholic, is trying to pass off as fact, his opinion of the way things should be. It's one thing to ask questions and to speculate on matters related to theology, it's quite another to try and present your opinion - an opinion that is not held by the Church - as dogma. At the Fourth Lateran Council, the Council of Florence, and other councils, the punishments of Hell are taught as being eternal - without end. In the Catechism, which contains the official teaching of the Church, the pains of Hell are taught as being eternal - without end. The Early Church Fathers - as well as the later Church Fathers - taught that the pains of Hell are eternal. The theology of anyone who says otherwise, or who says there is no Hell, is simply wrong. It is not Catholic theology. It is a dangerous theology that, if not repented of, could possibly land someone in Hell for all of eternity - even if they try to console themselves with the thought, "Hey, I'll only be here for a little while."

Closing Comments

It is a very dangerous thing to think you know better than the Church when it comes to matters of doctrine and morals. To knowingly and willingly reject a doctrinal teaching of the Church - such as Hell being eternal - is a mortal sin, and can, ironically, cause you to end up in Hell for all of eternity.

Don't forget - Blue Collar Apologetics on EWTN every night this week at 6:30 PM (Eastern).

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