Apologetics for the Masses #220 - The Pope Said What?

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General Comments

Hey folks,

A couple of things:

1) Balaam's Ride radio program - I am being deluged with requests to podcast our shows. I am working on that and will hopefully have that capability in the very near future. I will let you know once that service is available.

2) Speaking Engagements: I'll be in New Orleans October 1-3 hosting the on-air pledge drive for Catholic Community Radio - WQNO 690 AM in New Orleans and 1380 AM WPYR in Baton Rouge. If you're in those areas listen in and give us a call. If you're in the Birmingham area, I'll be manning the "Catholic Myth Busters" booth at the Holy Infant of Prague Octoberfest on Saturday, October 12th, from 10:00 AM - 2:00 PM, so come on by and enjoy the festivities and visit our booth. Also, I'll be in Wilmington, NC on October 25/26 (more details on this in a future email), and then in Tyler, TX on Saturday, November 9th, for the Fullness of Truth Conference. If you're in either of those areas, please plan on coming out...I'd love to have you come by and say hello.

Introduction

Okay, I had a reader send me an email that she had received from a non-Catholic friend who was jumping all over her about the Pope saying that atheists could be forgiven even if they don’t believe in God - which is the popular media narrative, and the narrative being spread by any number of non-Catholics (Kirk Cameron among them), regarding a letter the Pope wrote to an Italian newspaper a few days ago. That, however, is not actually what the Pope said.

So, I decided to reply to this guy on my reader's behalf and to publish it here as an exercise in how to deal with folks who swallow the distorted media narrative of what the Pope said in his letter, and what he has said in other places. The media is really trying hard to find a way to twist this Pope’s words into something that contradicts 2000-yr. old Catholic teaching, and those “Christians” who have a problem with the Catholic Church are jumping on board whole hog and helping the media spread their errors. So much for, “Thou shalt not bear false witness.”

Okay, first of all, here’s the article that this guy is upset about:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10302850/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-atheists-and-agnostics.html

I will present his email in its entirety, then I will repeat it with my comments after each paragraph. He has responded to what I wrote him, and I will include that response, with my reply in next week's newsletter.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Non-Catholic Email

OK, it's going to sound like a harsh question - but rather than get all riled up I'm going to ask that you step out and engage LOGICALLY and not emotionally for this:

Wouldn't you prefer to have a Pope (or Church leader in general, not to cast blame) who is more concerned with reading the Bible than reading opinion polls? I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that your holy father is focused on furthering the message of Christ. Is it really that much to ask that he deliver a message of REAL love, as Jesus did, by warning atheists and agnostics about the state of their souls and showing the incredible grace that has been offered to solve that problem? I'm also having a very difficult time accepting that BELIEVING catholics (like you, right?) have no problem with the idea that obeying one's conscience is how God truly forgives, and that sin is when one goes against his conscience?? I'm not interested in the fluff or commentary of this or other articles, please understand - just a focus on what the Pope himself said - how is that not SO far off the mark that you don't take a hint of issue with it? (I'm hoping you do, but my guess is that you'll be disgusted with me for even mentioning it, like I'm somehow on the attack!)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10302850/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-atheists-and-agnostics.html

I think in fairness, I'm trying really hard to see what I haven't seen and learn what I haven't learned about catholicism - with the deep down hope of inclusion within the fold of Christ's Body - but Ann, there is honestly no way I can have any of my atheist or agnostic friends thinking that a message like this from the Pope (his words, no spin!) is a biblical one - it's not even close. How do I call catholicism "Christianity" when its message is straying farther away from what Christ's was and no one within catholicism will take issue with that?

Last time we went through this you helped me see that there was no straying from catholic doctrine (one that once I learned the extent of was FUNDAMENTALLY opposed to on biblical grounds, but still) - is there a catholic doctrine that covers what he said here? Namely, that:

1. Sin is disobeying your own conscience (realistically, disobeying yourself) and not disobeying God.
2. Conscience is what determines (and is therefore the standard of) good and evil - rather than the perfect ethic, which is a Holy God, demonstrated by Jesus for mankind.
3. God's forgiveness is for those who obey their own conscience - rather than for those who wholeheartedly repent of sin and have full faith in Christ as Lord and Redeemer.

I don't mean to throw 3 in a row at you like that, just that those are each from what the Pope specifically wrote in his own words and are all linked to the bigger message he was giving. Would you focus on those for me and get back to me with some information whenever you have time to, or at least reaction to what was said here (regarding those 3)? - I'd really be interested...

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Non-Catholic

Okay, you asked me to respond “LOGICALLY” and “not emotionally;” so I will endeavor to do so. Although, I believe if you will honestly look over what you wrote - it was much more emotional than it was logical. But that’s okay, as I took no offense.

Now, regarding what you consider “a message of REAL love,” I must first ask if you actually read the entirety of the Pope’s response to that atheist? He talked about faith in Christ, about the love of God for mankind, of the relationship of Jesus with the Father, a relationship that we can share in - which is why Christianity is so unique - the atonement accomplished by Christ’s death, and other such things. I don’t understand how you can say these are not messages of “REAL love?” Did Jesus simply walk about all the time telling people they were going to Hell if they did not believe in Him?

Also, regarding this thing you wrote about obeying one’s conscience is “how God truly forgives,” again, this makes me think you did not read the entire message of the Pope, did you? If you had, you would have noticed that nowhere does the Pope say such a thing in his letter. The Pope said, “God’s mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart.” Implicit in that statement is that a person who asks God for His mercy necessarily has to believe in God! Why ask God for mercy if you don’t believe in God? In other words, the Pope was saying that if those who do not believe, do come to believe and are contrite for their sins and ask God for His mercy, they, too, can be forgiven. Do you deny that?

Furthermore, what you wrote about conscience is directly contrary to the Scriptures. This idea that not obeying your conscience is a sin, is right there in Romans 14:14. Rom 14:14, “I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.” So, it is not objectively a sin to eat any type of food, because no food is unclean, right? Yet, Paul says that if one thinks a food unclean - in other words, his conscience tells him so - then, for that person, it is a sin to eat that food. That is in the Bible. So, the Pope was simply repeating a scriptural principle.

Strategy

Always, always, always (!!!) read what the Pope actually said in a situation like this where the media is reporting something that just doesn't sound quite right. (It's happening again today as I write this with the media spin of some of the Pope's comments in the America Magazine article.) This guy is all upset about what the Pope said based on his reading of the above-referenced article. The problem is, the article has a couple of quotes from the Pope's letter, that, unfortunately, never actually appear in the Pope's letter. Which tells me the writer of that article never actually read what the Pope said, either. He probably got his "quotes" from some other article whose author also did not read what the Pope actually said. This is a very troubling trend in what used to be called journalism - writers, reporters, editors, etc. not actually verifying their sources and not really caring about getting to the original source material. And nowhere is this more evident than in these stories about the Pope that we've been seeing in the last few months. "All hail, the media," right?

So, the guy who sent this email has utterly failed in his duty, as a Christian, to spread the truth, because he has bought into a lie and he is perpetuating that lie by sending it out to others. I could somewhat understand if the source material was difficult to obtain, but that is a rare thing in our information age, and it is certainly not true in this case.

So, always be suspect of anyone who purports to tell you that the Pope has wandered off the reservation and is teaching things contrary to the Bible or contrary to the constant teaching of the Church. Read what they put in front of you, and then compare it to what was actually said, or written - they won't match up. The same is true whenever someone puts a Bible verse in front of you that "proves" the Catholic Church is wrong on something. Compare the words coming out of their mouth, with what the Book actually says. Most of the time, they don't match. Or, they are taking a verse or verses completely out of context.

What I've done here is:

1) Ask him to verify whether or not he has actually read what the Pope wrote. It is obvious he hasn't, and once he admits it, it will automatically disqualify him from commenting on what the Pope said until he actually reads the letter himself.

2) Asked him specific questions about other things in the Pope's letter to further drive home the fact that he did not read it. Always ask questions. Ask more questions than you answer!

3) Showed him that what the Pope said about disobeying your conscience is, in fact, something straight out of the Bible - Romans 14:14.

Non-Catholic

I think in fairness, I'm trying really hard to see what I haven't seen and learn what I haven't learned about catholicism - with the deep down hope of inclusion within the fold of Christ's Body - but Ann, there is honestly no way I can have any of my atheist or agnostic friends thinking that a message like this from the Pope (his words, no spin!) is a biblical one - it's not even close. How do I call catholicism "Christianity" when its message is straying farther away from what Christ's was and no one within catholicism will take issue with that?

My Response

Actually, in all fairness, they were not his words...they were indeed “spin.” As to your question: How do I call Catholicism “Christianity?” Well, my first question is, who are you to define what is and is not Christianity? Who are you to say that Catholicism is "straying farther away from what Christ was?" Could you please tell me what authority has endowed you with such power and authority to decide such things? Not meaning to be disrespectful here, but this is a real question: By what authority do you determine what is and is not Christianity and by what authority do you decide that Catholicism is straying from "what Jesus was?" I would like an honest answer to that.

Strategy

I will not answer his questions about Catholicism and Christianity until he can first demonstrate for me that he has the authority to declare such things as he has apparently infallibly declared - which he will never be able to do. Don't get caught up in wasting a lot of time, energy, and words answering questions that are based on false premises and/or personal, fallible interpretations of the Bible, and also upon exceedingly gross caricatures of the Catholic Faith.

Non-Catholic

Last time we went through this you helped me see that there was no straying from catholic doctrine (one that once I learned the extent of was FUNDAMENTALLY opposed to on biblical grounds, but still) - is there a catholic doctrine that covers what he said here? Namely, that:

1. Sin is disobeying your own conscience (realistically, disobeying yourself) and not disobeying God.
2. Conscience is what determines (and is therefore the standard of) good and evil - rather than the perfect ethic, which is a Holy God, demonstrated by Jesus for mankind.
3. God's forgiveness is for those who obey their own conscience - rather than for those who wholeheartedly repent of sin and have full faith in Christ as Lord and Redeemer.

My Response

Again, same question: By what authority do you declare some teaching of the Catholic Church to be “FUNDAMENTALLY opposed” to the Bible? Do you understand Catholic teaching so well, and understand the Bible so well, that you can infallibly declare such things?

I will be all to happy to answer your 3 questions, and then, if you don’t mind, I will ask three of my own.

1) First of all, nowhere did the Pope define sin as you claim he has done - that it pertains solely to disobeying your conscience and not to disobeying God. That is your “spin,” or the media's spin that you are swallowing hook, line, and sinker. Please give me the exact quote where he said such a thing? Again, I don't believe you have read what the Pope actually wrote, have you? If you have, then you are taking his words way out of context to reach that conclusion. Secondly, I have already shown that in Romans 14:14, Paul makes it very clear that it is indeed a sin to disobey one’s own conscience.

2) Nowhere did the Pope say such a thing. What he said was, and I quote: "God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is PERCEIVED to be good or evil." All he said, as Paul said, is that disobeying one’s conscience is a sin. Again, Romans 14:14. If you knew anything about Catholic teaching, you would also know that the Church teaches that one can be held accountable for not properly “forming” one’s conscience. To “form” one’s conscience is to make sure it is in accord with the will of God.

3) God’s forgiveness, the Pope said, is for those who ask for God’s mercy with a contrite and sincere heart. You have made up the rest.

Now, for my 3 questions:

1) I’ve already asked this, but I’ll formalize it here: By what authority do you declare any teaching of the Catholic Church to be contrary to Scripture?

2) Are you infallible in your interpretation of Scripture? In other words, could you be wrong when you interpret Scripture?

3) Who wrote the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know? Does Scripture tell you? If not, what authority do you rely on for your belief that Mark wrote Mark and that he was inspired by God in doing so?

Strategy

Keep asking the authority question. This is the basic question that you need to ask over and over and over again until they answer it, if they ever do. And, if they don't, then simply stop the conversation and tell them it can re-start once they have answered your question. Also, I've continued to drive it home, in all three of the answers to his questions, that he has obviously, painfully obviously, not actually read what the Pope actually wrote - big mistake, as it completely undermines his credibility.

And, after answering his questions, I now have some questions of my own. Ask questions...always!

Non-Catholic

I don't mean to throw 3 in a row at you like that, just that those are each from what the Pope specifically wrote in his own words and are all linked to the bigger message he was giving. Would you focus on those for me and get back to me with some information whenever you have time to, or at least reaction to what was said here (regarding those 3)? - I'd really be interested...

My Response

Well, actually, those are not what the Pope "specifically wrote in his own words," which tells me specifically that you did not actually read what he wrote.