Apologetics for the Masses - #271

Topic

(I apologize for the inordinate delay between newsletters, but there's been a lot going on in the last several weeks. In addition to my taking some time off for the holidays, we've had a number of very positive things going on that have taken up a lot of my time and attention. Anyway, this is a re-send of my last newsletter. Apparently we've been having a problem with the website not sending the newsletter out to all the folks in our database. We just became aware of it. So, I'm sending the last newsletter out again because it may have reached only a small percentage of our subscribers. If you received it before, my apologies for the repeat. Next week I'll be back with a new newsletter and with all the news of things that have been happening.)

Continuing my "conversation" with Don Jackson...

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General Comments

Hey folks,

I've mentioned this group before, but it's been a while so I wanted to bring them to your attention once again - or for the first time if you are relatively new to this newsletter. St. Paul Street Evangelization is an organization that literally gets Catholics out on the street doing evangelization. They describe themselves as a "grassroots, non-profit Catholic evangelization organization, dedicated to responding to the mandate of Jesus to preach the Gospel to all nations by taking our Catholic Faith to the streets. We do this in a non-confrontational way, allowing the Holy Spirit to move in the hearts of those who witness our public Catholic presence. St. Paul Street Evangelization provides an avenue for you to share the Person of Jesus Christ and the truth and beauty of the Catholic Faith with a hungry culture."

They have 200 local street teams throughout the world. I've brought them into the Diocese of Birmingham a couple of times for evangelization training workshops, and the folks in attendance were very happy with the results. Even if you're not into "takin' it to the streets," as the Doobie's put it, their evangelization training methods are applicable anywhere, anytime, with anyone. You can find more information about them, and about how to start a street evangelization team or how to bring them into your diocese for an evangelization training workshop, at http://www.stpaulse.com.

I encourage you to talk to the pastor or DRE at your parish to advocate for bringing these folks in for a workshop. Or, just get together with 2 or 3 other Catholics order their materials, and get out there and evangelize. It's easy, and it's fun.

Introduction

Continuing my dialogue with Mr. Don Jackson on "the gospel that saves." Last week I went through the first part of his latest response, which you can read here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/admin_newsletter/show/341. This week I'll take a look at and reply to the next part of his last response, and then finish it up next week. After that, I will not dally with Mr. Don Jackson any longer. I've given him plenty of opportunity to spout his nonsense and to show that he is not an honest seeker of truth. I'm growing very bored with his inability, or unwillingness, to answer my questions in a direct manner and his lack of sincerity in regards to Catholics. If he was truly concerned about the salvation of Catholics, then he would take the time to learn what we actually teach and believe - it is rather easy to find - rather than stooping to spouting half-truths and outright lies about our beliefs. So, either he is deliberately ignorant and wallowing gleefully in that ignorance, or he is malicious and deliberately misrepresenting what we believe and why we believe it. Either way, it calls for an end to this conversation.

Anyway, I'll start off by giving you his full response, and then pick up where I left off last week with my comments interspersed with his. So, if you want to shorten your reading time, just skip down to the line break.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Don Jackson

Hello again John:

I am delighted to be able to greet you in the exalted name of my Lord and Savior, The LORD Jesus Christ.

Many thanks to you for sharing my correspondence with all of your mailing list. Now these dear, precious people have heard the gospel of the grace of God that I have often shared with you. To briefly recap:

In my initial correspondence I asked you, “What is the gospel by which one is saved and where can it be found? You cited a couple of verses, which were not the gospel, and told me that you were “fond” of them. I told you about Dr. Peter Kreeft telling me in an e-mail, that “Catholics don’t know the gospel.” You admitted that this is true and you and he blamed it on “poor catechesis” in the Catholic church. Further, I cited my experience in asking Catholics, both laity and “clergy”, “What is the gospel by which one is saved?” None of them knew the gospel. I have many Catholic friends and mentioned that none of them have ever “evangelized” me. Many of my Baptist friends have shared the gospel of the grace of God with me.

As an ambassador [2Cor. 5:16-21] for the Lord Jesus Christ I consider it a privilege and a solemn duty to share the good news of the gospel of the grace of God with you and your mailing list. It is my pleasure, indeed.

Now, just a couple of points in your last correspondence to me:

Peter mentioning that Paul had written a letter to his fellow Jews: Yes, Paul did write such a letter, it is identified as his epistle to The Hebrews. You might also note that Peter said that Paul had written some things “hard to understand” to these fellow Jews. I hope that you caught the meaning of that statement by Peter.

James, Peter and John agreed to confine their ministry to the “circumcision” when they met with the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul [Galatians 2:9; Romans 11:13] And Paul says, “They added nothing to me…”

You are critical of me for telling you that our Lord’s earthly ministry was “only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” How do you read Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8? What is the roll of the 12 apostles to the curcumin when our Lord returns to earth to establish His earthly kingdom? See Matthew 19:28 for the answer.

Now to the rapture question: You will note in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 that Paul tells us that our Lord Jesus Christ is coming “in the air” to “catch us up.” Our Lord is not coming to earth at this time. We are going to be “caught up” in the air with Him. There is no mention of any judgement associated with this event. I am looking forward to this and believe that it is imminent. I am so sorry that these words do not “comfort” [vs 18] you. I would also direct your attention to 1 Cor. 15:51ff and Titus 2:13 in reference to the rapture. Paul calls this “our blessed hope.” I realize that you and your church deny this doctrine, but Paul taught it as it was revealed to him by the risen and exalted Lord Jesus Christ. How do you read the cited verses?

John, you tell me you believe 1 Cor. 15:1-4 “100%,” but you deny that this is the complete gospel of salvation. A priest once told me that “Jesus [sic] did about 85% of the work, now we must do the rest.” How sad.

[This is where I left off last week.]

Questions for you:

Did our Lord do all that is necessary for salvation when He died, was buried, and resurrected to pay the full penalty for our sins? Yes or no.

Are believers sealed by God the Holy Spirit the moment we hear and believe the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4? Yes or no. (Eph. 1:13; 4:30)

Are believers “complete in Him” in our salvation that He provides? Yes or no. (Col. 2:10)

Has He provided “so great salvation” to everyone who believes the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

Is the seal of Eph. 1:13 and 4:30 valid until the redemption of our bodies? Yes or no.

Has the Lord Jesus Christ forgiven us “all trespasses” in our so great salvation? Yes or no. (Col. 2:13)

I am so sorry that you want to “shake my dust” off you.

Grace and peace to you and remember, the Lord Jesus Christ had you personally in mind when He went to the cross. “Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.”

My only “strategy” is to share the gospel with you and pray that you are saved.

Answering your questions from your latest dart:

I have answered this question about the Bible in the past. I realize you want me to admit that the Roman Catholic denomination is the only one who can tell me that the Bible is the Word of God. I am not playing your game on this because I don’t believe that the Roman Catholic denomination is the guardian of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is the guardian.

I have previously told you that no one is infallible. That includes you, me and the Roman Catholic denomination. You continue to beat a dead horse.

The Roman Catholic denomination was not founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. I have shown you over and over again that His earthly ministry was strictly to Israel and concerned the kingdom long promised to them by the prophets. The Roman Catholic denomination, with all the continuing scandals is not guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would not be involved with all this corruption.

Galatians 3:1 does not refer to the crucifix. The Galatians would not be breaking the 2nd commandment by creating a “graven image.” It is interesting that the Roman Catholic denomination gets around the 2nd commandment by removing it and then breaking the 10th into 2 commandments. Note Exodus 20:4 and compare with your catechism.

John, You admitted that Catholics do not know the gospel by agreeing with Dr. Kreeft and you blamed it on “poor catechesis” by the Roman Catholic denomination. Is that not admitting that you teach a false gospel? If Catholics don’t know the gospel that saves, and you didn’t know it either, what does that tell you? I have never met a Roman Catholic [laity or clergy] who knew the gospel by which one is saved. Paul calls 1 Cor. 15:1-4 the “gospel by which you are saved.” I will have the decency to admit that you did not know the gospel that saves us. Will you have the decency to admit that when I asked you the question about the gospel you sent me a couple of passages that you “are fond of” which are not the gospel that saves?

You claim that the Roman Catholic church is “the oldest institution on earth.” That is false! There are several “religions” older than the Roman Catholic “religion.”

You ask about my church – it is the Body of Christ. And I became a member by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. At that moment the Holy Spirit baptized me into the one Body. Acts 16:31; 1 Cor. 12:13.

The “first 12 leaders” were apostles to the circumcision and will “sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel” in the coming kingdom. Are there 12 tribes in your church? Which tribe do you belong to? The Body of Christ was first revealed to the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. (Ephesians 3:1-10; Colossians 1:26 where the word “now” is the Greek word nuni and means “just now.” You should also read Romans 16:25. The “mystery” was first revealed to Paul. You are absolutely wrong when you state that the kingdom is the church. NOT SO! Israel was promised a kingdom on earth. Paul writes that our citizenship is in heaven.” Phil 3:20.. Israel has an earthly hope and calling while the Body of Christ has a heavenly hope and calling. You could use a very basic course on “rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” [2 Tim. 2:15].

You ridicule “rightly dividing the Word of Truth>” But the apostle Paul tells us that we are “approved of God by studying and rightly dividing the word of truth.” [2 Tim. 2:15]. And you deny the Biblical truth of Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8. Please explain those Scriptures, do they mean what they say or do you “spiritualize” them to mean something else?

I have already answered your problem with 2 Peter 3:15. Paul wrote the book of Hebrews to the same Jews that James, Peter and John wrote their letters to. James writes to the “Twelve tribes scattered abroad.” Is that Israel or the church? Did James, Peter and John lie to Paul about confining their ministry to the Jews? [Gal. 2:9}.

Give me your take on Peter addressing:

Acts 2:14 “….ye men of Israel….”

Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel….”

Acts 2:36 “…..Let all the house of Israel…..”

Acts 5:31 “….a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

Did Peter offer the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to establish the Jewish kingdom in Acts 3:19-21?

The “one body” is the Body of Christ. Paul is the only writer to name the church as the Body of Christ.

You claim that I “reject” Peter’s letters, Mark, Luke and Acts. That is patently false and you know it.

You claim that the Catholic denomination teaches that “we are saved by God’s grace and God’s grace alone.” I wonder why EVERY Catholic that I have asked [both laity and clergy], “what must I do to be saved?” have presented a system of works to me? “Poor catechesis” from an infallible church, I suppose.

Your “spiritualization” of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is pitiable. Our Lord does not return to earth in these verses. He comes in the air and “catches us up” – verse 17. Haydock says that there is a “judgement” associated with this coming in the air, NOT SO. No judgement is even hinted at in these verses. On the contrary, Pauls says that we should “comfort one another with these words.

John, should you even be discussing the Word of God with me? Does your denomination approve of this? My friend, you need a very basic course in exegesis of the Word of God. You couldn’t be more wrong in most of your observations. Quit the “straw dummyism” stragety and start proclaiming the true gospel of the grace of God. That man is saved by grace through faith and not of works – Romans 4;4,5; Ephesians 2:8,9.
John: You seem to think that there is "only one gospel" taught in the Bible. Only one bit of "good news'? Really? Answer these questions:

John the Baptist, our LORD Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles all preached the gospel of the kingdom. Is that gospel the same as the gospel of the grace of God that Paul proclaims? What is the content of the gospel of the kingdom?

In Luke 9;6 Our LORD Jesus Christ sent the apostles to preach the gospel. What was the content of that gospel? Was it the gospel as found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4? Show me from Scripture.

I know that you will give due diligence to these questions.

Thanks,

Don Jackson, SBG + Nothing

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Don Jackson

Questions for you:

1) Did our Lord do all that is necessary for salvation when He died, was buried, and resurrected to pay the full penalty for our sins? Yes or no.

2) Are believers sealed by God the Holy Spirit the moment we hear and believe the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4? Yes or no. (Eph. 1:13; 4:30)

3) Are believers “complete in Him” in our salvation that He provides? Yes or no. (Col. 2:10)

4) Has He provided “so great salvation” to everyone who believes the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

5) Is the seal of Eph. 1:13 and 4:30 valid until the redemption of our bodies? Yes or no.

6) Has the Lord Jesus Christ forgiven us “all trespasses” in our so great salvation? Yes or no. (Col. 2:13)

I am so sorry that you want to “shake my dust” off you.

Grace and peace to you and remember, the Lord Jesus Christ had you personally in mind when He went to the cross. “Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.”

My only “strategy” is to share the gospel with you and pray that you are saved.

John Martignoni

Don, unlike you, I will answer your questions with direct answers.

1) "Did our Lord do all that is necessary for salvation when He died, was buried, and resurrected to pay the full penalty for our sins? Yes or no?" Yes. Our Lord did all that was necessary for Him to do to redeem us from our sins. He did indeed pay the full price, or penalty, for our sins. "By His stripes we are healed," (Isaiah 53:5). He did not, however, do all that is necessary for each individual's salvation. That's because there is something that each one of us has to do in order to be saved, and He is not going to do it for us, nor will He force us to do it. We have to make a decision to believe in Him and to "observe all that [He] has commanded," (Matt 28:20). We have to give the assent of our intellects and wills to believe and to be saved. You see, Don, if Jesus did all that has to be done for our salvation, and there is absolutely nothing required of us in order to be saved - as you seem to believe - then everyone, everywhere, at all times, is saved. If we don't have some role to play in our own salvation, then Jesus' death on the Cross results in universal salvation. The price is paid, so everyone is saved. But not everyone is saved, are they? That's why the Bible says that Jesus is the "Savior of all men, especially of those who believe," (1 Timothy 4:10). He paid the price of all men's sins, so in that sense He is indeed the Savior of all men. He redeemed all men. However, not all men accept this free gift of their redemption and apply it to their lives, which is why He is "especially" the Savior of those who believe.

2) Are believers sealed by God the Holy Spirit the moment we hear and believe the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4? Yes or no. (Eph. 1:13; 4:30) No, we are not. We are sealed by God with the Holy Spirit the moment we are baptized. 2 Cor 1:22, "He has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." When do we receive the Holy Spirit in our hearts? Baptism. "I will sprinkle clean water upon you [Baptism], and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses...A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you...And I will put my Spirit within you..." (Ezek 36:25-27). Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins [clean from all your uncleannesses] and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit [And I will put my Spirit within you]." Baptism is the New Testament fulfillment of the Old Testament practice of circumcision: "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with Him in baptism..." (Col 2:11-12). Circumcision was the Old Testament seal of God: "[Abraham] received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised," (Romans 4:11). Through Baptism, the N.T. fulfillment of circumcision, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

3) Are believers “complete in Him” in our salvation that He provides? Yes or no (Col. 2:10)? Yes, believers are "complete in Him," or have come to "fullness of life in Him," in and through Baptism (see the next two verses, Col 2:11-12, as mentioned in #2 above).

4) Has He provided “so great salvation” to everyone who believes the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4? Everyone who believes and "who by patience in well-doing [good works] seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life," (Rom 2:6-7). But, we can also drift away, or let slip away, and neglect "so great salvation" and receive just recompence if we do so (Hebrews 2:1-3). I doubt the "just recompence" for letting so great salvation slip away is eternal life in Heaven.

5) Is the seal of Eph. 1:13 and 4:30 valid until the redemption of our bodies? Yes or no? Yes, and even longer. The seal we receive through Baptism is on us for all of eternity. I think, however, that you believe being sealed by Christ means we can never lose our salvation. Nowhere does Scripture say that. Was every Israelite who received the seal of God in circumcision, saved? Don't think so.

6) Has the Lord Jesus Christ forgiven us “all trespasses” in our so great salvation? Yes or no. (Col. 2:13) No. God forgives those who repent (Rom 2:4; 2 Cor 7:10; Heb 12:17) and confess their sins (1 John 1:9; James 5:16). If you do not repent and do not confess your sins, you are not forgiven. And, it is possible to be forgiven and to be in God's grace, but then to fall from grace by not forgiving others - we see this in Matt 18:23-35 when the ruler forgave one servant of his debts, but then that servant did not forgive a 2nd servant of his debt to him, so the ruler came back to the first servant and "in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers." Is Heaven like a jail? Don't think so. So where did this servant go after he was forgiven but then sinned by not forgiving another? Also, Jesus also tells us in Matthew 6, that if we do not forgive the sins of others against us, then the Father will not forgive our sins against Him.

In regard to shaking your dust off of my feet, that's nothing personal, it's just that, as Jesus was essentially telling His disciples, it is useless to waste your time with those who are not open to hearing the truth, and you definitely fall into that category. The only reason I am still discussing these issues with you, is because I believe it is providing a good teaching opportunity for the subscribers to this newsletter, and they are the reason I have this newsletter.

Strategy

Please note that I directly answered Don's questions. If he asked a yes-no question, I answered with a yes or a no, and then explained the reasoning behind my answer. I can't think of any of my questions that Don has answered with a direct answer - as you'll see more examples below. So, when someone asks you a question, give a direct answer. And then when they don't answer your questions at all, or they give "answers" that really have nothing to do with the question, point out the difference. If that continues, stop the conversation.

Don Jackson

Answering your questions from your latest dart:

1) I have answered this question about the Bible in the past. I realize you want me to admit that the Roman Catholic denomination is the only one who can tell me that the Bible is the Word of God. I am not playing your game on this because I don’t believe that the Roman Catholic denomination is the guardian of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is the guardian.

2) I have previously told you that no one is infallible. That includes you, me and the Roman Catholic denomination. You continue to beat a dead horse.

3) The Roman Catholic denomination was not founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. I have shown you over and over again that His earthly ministry was strictly to Israel and concerned the kingdom long promised to them by the prophets. The Roman Catholic denomination, with all the continuing scandals is not guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would not be involved with all this corruption.

4) Galatians 3:1 does not refer to the crucifix. The Galatians would not be breaking the 2nd commandment by creating a “graven image.” It is interesting that the Roman Catholic denomination gets around the 2nd commandment by removing it and then breaking the 10th into 2 commandments. Note Exodus 20:4 and compare with your catechism.

John Martignoni

The questions he is answering here are as follows:

1) Can you give me a reasonable argument for why you believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, Word of God...yes or no?

2) Will you admit that since you are not infallible, any or all of your private fallible interpretations of Scripture that you have written to me about could be wrong?

3) Is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, which is guided by the Holy Spirit, infallible?

4) What were the Galatians looking at if Jesus was publicly portrayed...before their eyes...as being crucified (Galatians 3:1)?

His previous responses to #1 as to why he believes the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant Word of God included a mention of St. Polycarp (who was a Catholic bishop) quoting the Bible and of some sort of "consensus of believers" - none of whom he has named or told me what authority any of this "consensus of believers" had - and references to "Scripture" in one of St. Peter's letters and in one of the letters to Timothy. In other words, he was using Scripture to prove that Scripture was the Word of God. That is begging the question - he assumes Scripture is the Word of God, and then he uses Scripture to prove that Scripture is the Word of God. His problem is, and this is the problem faced by most Protestants today, he cannot tell me whose witness he relies upon to believe that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God. Oh, yes...the Holy Spirit. There's a problem, though, with his claim that he heard directly from the Holy Spirit that the Bible is the Word of God.

First of all, what evidence can he provide that the Holy Spirit spoke to him so that we may believe him? Scripture says to "test the spirits" to determine truth. Well, Don fails the test. Secondly, if Don is being directly guided by the Holy Spirit in matters pertaining to Scripture, then why does he claim to not be infallible? If the Holy Spirit is guiding him, then he is infallible because the Holy Spirit is infallible. Either he is infallible, or he is not being guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes to matters of the Bible - he can't have it both ways. You can use this logic on every single Sola Scriptura believer who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes to interpreting the Bible - every single one.

Notice that in his "answer" to #2, he completely avoids the question. He will admit he is fallible, but he will not admit that what he is saying to me could be wrong. I call it being fallible in theory, infallible in practice. Again, I find this situation over and over and over again with pretty much every Sola Scriptura believer I talk to. Oh, they're fallible alright, no man is infallible (which is essentially a knee-jerk reaction to the Catholic teaching about the infallibility of the Pope), but when you ask them if they could be wrong about their interpretations of Scripture, or about their views regarding Catholic teaching? Ain't no way they are wrong. All of a sudden, they've become infallible.

In his "answer" to question #3, he again avoids the question. I nowhere said anything about the Catholic Church in my question. I asked him if the Church founded by Jesus Christ was infallible. After all, Jesus did found a Church - it's right there in Matthew 16 and 18 and many other places. We see the Church mentioned in Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, and elsewhere, so Jesus founded something. You see, he has a problem with this question, which is why he won't answer it. If no man is infallible, as he claims, then that means that whoever is running this Church Jesus founded could possibly be teaching error. Which means Jesus founded a Church, and gave the Holy Spirit to guide it, but this Church cannot be relied upon by anyone for knowing the truth, because it is led by fallible men. So, Jesus founded a Church, which is, as 1 Timothy 3:15 states, "the pillar and ground of the truth," but it can't be relied upon to actually be the pillar and ground of the truth because it's leaders are fallible men who could be teaching error. Yeah, that makes sense to me. I have never, ever, had anyone give me a direct response to this question, because they know where the logic leads.

And, one more time, he avoids answering question #4. Galatians 3:1 states that Jesus was publicly portrayed as crucified before their eyes. So, I asked him what the Galatians were looking at? He waves his hands and pronounces the magic word - Abracadabra - and POOF, the Galatians weren't looking at a crucifix. Well, I didn't ask what they weren't looking at, I asked what they were looking at. Jesus, publicly portrayed as crucified, before their eyes. It doesn't say Jesus was publicly portrayed as crucifed in their hearing, it says "before whose eyes." They were looking at something. What was it? He can't tell us. But, he infallibly knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't a crucifix. Really?! Answer the question, Don! What was it they were looking at that showed that portrayed Jesus as being crucified?

Furthermore, he embarrasses himself by throwing out the old lie that Catholics removed the 2nd Commandment. We did not. He even says to compare Exodus 20:4 with our Catechism. Okay, Don, let's do that. Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them..." Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 496, column 1: "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them..." Don, do you renounce your lie about the Catholic Church now, having seen the evidence? Folks, don't hold your breath.

Strategy

The only thing you need to remember here, is to compare the "answers" you get to your questions, to what your questions actually asked. As you can see by Don's example, His answers generally bear little to no resemblance to the questions I asked. Why is that one wonders? Because he cannot answer my questions and remain consistent in his theology. If he were to actually answer the questions in a direct and straightforward manner, it would be very clear - even to himself - that his interpretations of Scripture are twisted, convoluted, contradictory, and at times just outright ridiculous.

Don Jackson

John Martignoni

Well, that was nice of him to have the decency to admit that I did not know the gospel that saves us. But there's a problem. I didn't admit that. Actually, there a few problems. Second problem, so what? If I believe the "gospel that saves," then I'm saved right, regardless of whether I can answer Don Jackson's question in a manner that he defines as acceptable? I mean, I profess at every Mass - which is at least once a week - that I believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for my salvation and that He was raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven. That is what Don saves constitutes the entirety of the "gospel that saves." So, Don, I'm saved, right? Where does the Bible say I have to answer your question to your satisfaction in order to be saved? It doesn't. I challenge you, Don, again, to ask those ignorant Catholics you keep talking about, this question: "Who was it that died on the cross for your sins and was raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven?" I guarantee you that every single one of them will answer: "Jesus Christ." Which means, they do indeed know the "gospel that saves," they just don't understand the question as you have phrased it. So, do you condemn them to Hell because they don't understand your question, even though they know the answer? You dare usurp the judgment authority of God Himself!?

Third problem, the passages that I sent him that I am "fond of" all have to do with salvation: John 14:6, John 8:32, John 6:51-58, and Romans 2:6-7. Don claims they don't have to do with salvation. Well, does he claim that by his fallible, man-made authority? Fourth problem, which is related to the second problem above, where in the Bible does it say that unless you can answer Don Jackson's question exactly how he wants it to be answered, that you are not saved? Don Jackson is judging my eternal salvation, and the eternal salvation of all Catholics, when he has no authority to do so. In fact, by doing so, he is showing that he is either ignorant of Scripture, or chooses to ignore Scripture - both of which do not commend him as someone who can be trusted. For example, Matthew 7:1 says judge not lest ye be judged. 7:2, "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged." So, if Don Jackson is pronouncing others as not saved, then, according to Scripture, he is not saved. And, in 1 Cor 4:5, it says, "Do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes..." Don Jackson doesn't appear to know that one or, if he does know it, he doesn't seem to care about it, because he is pronouncing judgment now.

And, no, bad catechesis on the part of some within the Church does not equal the teaching of a false gospel by the Church. Does the myriad of contradictory beliefs held by various "Bible Christians," all of which they claim come from the Bible, mean that the Bible teaches contradiction? Well, according to your logic it does. So, either the Bible teaches contradiction, or you are using bad logic. Which is it?

Strategy

Logic, and common sense, are always on the side of the Catholic, as long as the Catholic keeps the Church at his back.

Don Jackson

You claim that the Roman Catholic church is “the oldest institution on earth.” That is false! There are several “religions” older than the Roman Catholic “religion.”

John Martignoni

Don, you seem to have a great deal of difficulty sticking to what I actually said. I did not say the Catholic religion was the oldest religion on earth, I said, as you noted in your quotes, it is the "oldest institution on earth." An institution is characterized by organization, identifiable leadership, leadership succession, a particular body of beliefs, and so on. Name me, for example, one other religion that has anything that resembles the papacy? Hinduism does not. Buddhism does not. Islam does not. Judaism does not. You can find particular institutions within any or all of these religions, but none of them are as old as the Catholic Church. Besides, you are once again missing the point (on purpose, maybe?). The claim is, that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church would not have survived as it has for 2000 years. If it was a false religion run by false teachers then it would have collapsed upon itself many hundreds of years ago.

Don Jackson

John Martignoni

Here is what I asked about Don's church, let's see if he actually answered the questions: "So, how old is your church? By the way, what church do you even belong to Don? Is it perfect? Is it led by men who commit no sins whatsoever? Does it have teachers who are perfect? Does it have bishops and pastors and deacons who are perfect? No one in your church sins? That seems to be what you’re saying here."

Notice that he, once again (Surprise! Surprise!), avoids answering the questions. Don's church is the Body of Christ. Wonderful. Where does it meet? Who are its pastors and teachers? Are the pastors and teachers perfect in what they teach? Well, they can't be, because none of them are infallible. Are they sinners? Of course they are. I would give pretty good odds that Don goes to no church, and has no pastor. Why? Because Don is his own church. He answers to no authority other than his own fallible authority. He is pope, pastor, and theologian of the Church of Don. The point I'm making by asking him these questions, is that he claims the Catholic Church cannot be the Church founded by Christ because of the sins of its members. Well, which church is it that doesn't have members and leaders who don't sin? I was hoping Don could name one for me so that I could join it and add it to the ranks of the imperfect. Using Don's "logic" - that the church founded by Jesus has to be one with leaders and members who do not sin - no church can be the church founded by Jesus Christ.

Closing Comments

Do you see how tedious and cumbersome a conversation becomes if you try to answer every single point made by the other guy? Don't do it. It's not that every single point they make couldn't be answered, it's that trying to answer every single point makes you lose sight of the forest for the trees. It takes you away from - distracts from - the main issue you need to be getting to each and every time - Authority! Answer one or two points and then ask one, two, or more of your own questiions. When your questions are not answered, ask them again before you answer any other questions. If they keep going unanswered, then what's the point? You have found someone who wants to preach but does not want to listen, like Don here. If they do answer your questions, then run with it until they no longer do.

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