Apologetics for the Masses #270

Topic

Continuing my dialogue with Mr. Don Jackson...

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General Comments

Hey folks,

If you're looking for something very Catholic to give to someone - whether as a Christmas present or to just strengthen someone in the faith or maybe even to someone who is considering the Catholic faith - or for your own family's viewing, I highly recommend the Symbolon DVD series. There are 20 episodes on 10 DVD's: https://www.lighthousecatholicmedia.org/symbolon#product-div You can get the full set for $190, or just do the first set for $99 and the 2nd set later. If you can't spring for that maybe talk your pastor or DRE into ordering a set for the parish library and then checking it out for your family to view. Or, see if they'll play it for the Adult Ed classes or for the Religious Ed classes or whatever at your parish. Or go in with a couple of other folks to purchase it. Anyway, my kids got a lot out of it (we've seen the first 10 episodes, I need to order the second ten) - we used the videos as launching points for family discussions. Even though they weren't real happy with dad making them watch these videos that didn't have great action scenes or unreal computer graphics, they nevertheless learned some good stuff. One incentive to make them pay attention, was to tell them that I was going to ask each one of them at least two questions based on the videos, and if they couldn't answer, they would be without all technology for a couple of days. I was actually a little surprised, as I think they were, by how much they got out of these "coerced" viewings. I think they secretly enjoyed the videos, although they couldn't tell dad that. Anyway, just wanted to let you know about this great resource...

Introduction

Continuing my dialogue with Mr. Don Jackson on "the gospel that saves." I'm going to start off with some of my comments, and then give you his response, in its entirety, to my last reply to him, which can be found here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/detail/340. And then I will repeat his comments with my comments and strategies interspersed, as is my usual custom. In order to keep this from being too long, I'm going to reply to part of his comments in this newsletter, and the rest in next week's newsletter.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

John Martignoni

As I mentioned last week, when you are engaged in a discussion with someone about the Catholic Church, the Bible, and so on, you need to keep the focus fairly narrow, or things can get out of hand in a hurry (as you're about to see). If you try to answer every single point they bring up - which is, essentially, what I'm doing here - the conversation gets pretty unwieldy, pretty fast. I've had people send me email discussions they're having with folks and asked, "Can you help me with this?" Well, the discussions might be 20-30 pages long. And 9/10 of that will be them responding to every single point the other guy is making. No! Do not do that. You pick out 1 or 2 things that you've been asked, or challenged on, in regard to the Catholic Faith, explain the Catholic position on those one or two things using quotes from the Bible and the Catechism (if necessary) and common sense and simple logic, and then you ask one or two or three questions of your own about the other person's faith: Why do they believe "this" when the Bible says "that"? Where in the Bible is your belief on such and such? Will you admit, based on my response, that your understanding of Catholic teaching on this or that was wrong? And other questions along those lines. Questions that put them on the defensive...questions that make them explain what it is they believe and why they believe it. And, all the time, moving the discussion to the ultimate question: Authority. By what authority do you tell me my interpretation of Scripture is wrong? By what authority do you declare the Catholic Church to be wrong? Are you infallible? Are you an authentic interpreter of Scripture? The Bible says to "test the spirits," so what proof can you offer that you are being guided by the Holy Spirit?

And if they do not respond to your questions, then you do not respond to any more of their questions until they do respond. You just keep sending back your unanswered questions and tell them that you will be happy to answer some more of their questions, once they have first answered yours. Try once, twice, three times - and if they don't answer after the third time you've asked, then shake their dust off of your sandals and move on.

Now, what you see below (and in next week's newsletter) is the result of not doing what I am talking about above. This is the result from last week of my responding to every point he was making. Because I did not stick to simply repeating the questions that I have already asked him - which he has not answered - he was able to expand the conversation even further, thus making it more difficult to focus the conversation and bring it back to a point where it might have a chance to be productive. Learn the lesson. Remember, you do not have to answer every single question or accusation about the Faith. And, the ones you do decide to answer, take them one or two at a time while simultaneously moving the conversation in a deliberate manner to the question of authority.

Okay, here is his response to what I wrote him last week and then my reply will be below that:

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Don Jackson

Hello again John:

I am delighted to be able to greet you in the exalted name of my Lord and Savior, The LORD Jesus Christ.

Many thanks to you for sharing my correspondence with all of your mailing list. Now these dear, precious people have heard the gospel of the grace of God that I have often shared with you. To briefly recap:

In my initial correspondence I asked you, “What is the gospel by which one is saved and where can it be found? You cited a couple of verses, which were not the gospel, and told me that you were “fond” of them. I told you about Dr. Peter Kreeft telling me in an e-mail, that “Catholics don’t know the gospel.” You admitted that this is true and you and he blamed it on “poor catechesis” in the Catholic church. Further, I cited my experience in asking Catholics, both laity and “clergy”, “What is the gospel by which one is saved?” None of them knew the gospel. I have many Catholic friends and mentioned that none of them have ever “evangelized” me. Many of my Baptist friends have shared the gospel of the grace of God with me.

As an ambassador [2Cor. 5:16-21] for the Lord Jesus Christ I consider it a privilege and a solemn duty to share the good news of the gospel of the grace of God with you and your mailing list. It is my pleasure, indeed.

Now, just a couple of points in your last correspondence to me:

Peter mentioning that Paul had written a letter to his fellow Jews: Yes, Paul did write such a letter, it is identified as his epistle to The Hebrews. You might also note that Peter said that Paul had written some things “hard to understand” to these fellow Jews. I hope that you caught the meaning of that statement by Peter.

James, Peter and John agreed to confine their ministry to the “circumcision” when they met with the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul [Galatians 2:9; Romans 11:13] And Paul says, “They added nothing to me…”

You are critical of me for telling you that our Lord’s earthly ministry was “only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” How do you read Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8? What is the roll of the 12 apostles to the curcumin when our Lord returns to earth to establish His earthly kingdom? See Matthew 19:28 for the answer.

Now to the rapture question: You will note in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 that Paul tells us that our Lord Jesus Christ is coming “in the air” to “catch us up.” Our Lord is not coming to earth at this time. We are going to be “caught up” in the air with Him. There is no mention of any judgement associated with this event. I am looking forward to this and believe that it is imminent. I am so sorry that these words do not “comfort” [vs 18] you. I would also direct your attention to 1 Cor. 15:51ff and Titus 2:13 in reference to the rapture. Paul calls this “our blessed hope.” I realize that you and your church deny this doctrine, but Paul taught it as it was revealed to him by the risen and exalted Lord Jesus Christ. How do you read the cited verses?

John, you tell me you believe 1 Cor. 15:1-4 “100%,” but you deny that this is the complete gospel of salvation. A priest once told me that “Jesus [sic] did about 85% of the work, now we must do the rest.” How sad.

Questions for you:

Did our Lord do all that is necessary for salvation when He died, was buried, and resurrected to pay the full penalty for our sins? Yes or no.
Are believers sealed by God the Holy Spirit the moment we hear and believe the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4? Yes or no. (Eph. 1:13; 4:30)
Are believers “complete in Him” in our salvation that He provides? Yes or no. (Col. 2:10)
Has He provided “so great salvation” to everyone who believes the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4.
Is the seal of Eph. 1:13 and 4:30 valid until the redemption of our bodies? Yes or no.
Has the Lord Jesus Christ forgiven us “all trespasses” in our so great salvation? Yes or no. (Col. 2:13)

I am so sorry that you want to “shake my dust” off you.

Grace and peace to you and remember, the Lord Jesus Christ had you personally in mind when He went to the cross. “Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.”

My only “strategy” is to share the gospel with you and pray that you are saved.

Answering your questions from your latest dart:

I have answered this question about the Bible in the past. I realize you want me to admit that the Roman Catholic denomination is the only one who can tell me that the Bible is the Word of God. I am not playing your game on this because I don’t believe that the Roman Catholic denomination is the guardian of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is the guardian.
I have previously told you that no one is infallible. That includes you, me and the Roman Catholic denomination. You continue to beat a dead horse.
The Roman Catholic denomination was not founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. I have shown you over and over again that His earthly ministry was strictly to Israel and concerned the kingdom long promised to them by the prophets. The Roman Catholic denomination, with all the continuing scandals is not guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would not be involved with all this corruption.
Galatians 3:1 does not refer to the crucifix. The Galatians would not be breaking the 2^nd commandment by creating a “graven image.” It is interesting that the Roman Catholic denomination gets around the 2^nd commandment by removing it and then breaking the 10^th into 2 commandments. Note Exodus 20:4 and compare with your catechism.

John, You admitted that Catholics do not know the gospel by agreeing with Dr. Kreeft and you blamed it on “poor catechesis” by the Roman Catholic denomination. Is that not admitting that you teach a false gospel? If Catholics don’t know the gospel that saves, and you didn’t know it either, what does that tell you? I have never met a Roman Catholic [laity or clergy] who knew the gospel by which one is saved. Paul calls 1 Cor. 15:1-4 the “gospel by which you are saved.” I will have the decency to admit that you did not know the gospel that saves us. Will you have the decency to admit that when I asked you the question about the gospel you sent me a couple of passages that you “are fond of” which are not the gospel that saves?

You claim that the Roman Catholic church is “the oldest institution on earth.” That is false! There are several “religions” older than the Roman Catholic “religion.”

You ask about my church – it is the Body of Christ. And I became a member by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. At that moment the Holy Spirit baptized me into the one Body. Acts 16:31; 1 Cor. 12:13.

The “first 12 leaders” were apostles to the circumcision and will “sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel” in the coming kingdom. Are there 12 tribes in your church? Which tribe do you belong to? The Body of Christ was first revealed to the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. (Ephesians 3:1-10; Colossians 1:26 where the word “now” is the Greek word nuni and means “just now.” You should also read Romans 16:25. The “mystery” was first revealed to Paul. You are absolutely wrong when you state that the kingdom is the church. NOT SO! Israel was promised a kingdom on earth. Paul writes that our citizenship is in heaven.” Phil 3:20.. Israel has an earthly hope and calling while the Body of Christ has a heavenly hope and calling. You could use a very basic course on “rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” [2 Tim. 2:15].

You ridicule “rightly dividing the Word of Truth>” But the apostle Paul tells us that we are “approved of God by studying and rightly dividing the word of truth.” [2 Tim. 2:15]. And you deny the Biblical truth of Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8. Please explain those Scriptures, do they mean what they say or do you “spiritualize” them to mean something else?

I have already answered your problem with 2 Peter 3:15. Paul wrote the book of Hebrews to the same Jews that James, Peter and John wrote their letters to. James writes to the “Twelve tribes scattered abroad.” Is that Israel or the church? Did James, Peter and John lie to Paul about confining their ministry to the Jews? [Gal. 2:9}.

Give me your take on Peter addressing:

Acts 2:14 “….ye men of Israel….”

Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel….”

Acts 2:36 “…..Let all the house of Israel…..”

Acts 5:31 “….a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

Did Peter offer the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to establish the Jewish kingdom in Acts 3:19-21?

The “one body” is the Body of Christ. Paul is the only writer to name the church as the Body of Christ.

You claim that I “reject” Peter’s letters, Mark, Luke and Acts. That is patently false and you know it.

You claim that the Catholic denomination teaches that “we are saved by God’s grace and God’s grace alone.” I wonder why EVERY Catholic that I have asked [both laity and clergy], “what must I do to be saved?” have presented a system of works to me? “Poor catechesis” from an infallible church, I suppose.

Your “spiritualization” of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is pitiable. Our Lord does not return to earth in these verses. He comes in the air and “catches us up” – verse 17. Haydock says that there is a “judgement” associated with this coming in the air, NOT SO. No judgement is even hinted at in these verses. On the contrary, Pauls says that we should “comfort one another with these words.

John, should you even be discussing the Word of God with me? Does your denomination approve of this? My friend, you need a very basic course in exegesis of the Word of God. You couldn’t be more wrong in most of your observations. Quit the “straw dummyism” stragety and start proclaiming the true gospel of the grace of God. That man is saved by grace through faith and not of works – Romans 4;4,5; Ephesians 2:8,9.

John: You seem to think that there is "only one gospel" taught in the Bible. Only one bit of "good news'? Really? Answer these questions:

John the Baptist, our LORD Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles all preached the gospel of the kingdom. Is that gospel the same as the gospel of the grace of God that Paul proclaims? What is the content of the gospel of the kingdom?

In Luke 9;6 Our LORD Jesus Christ sent the apostles to preach the gospel. What was the content of that gospel? Was it the gospel as found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4? Show me from Scripture.

I know that you will give due diligence to these questions.

Thanks,

Don Jackson, SBG + Nothing

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Don Jackson

Hello again John:

I am delighted to be able to greet you in the exalted name of my Lord and Savior, The LORD Jesus Christ.

John Martignoni

Don, first of all, let's go over the questions that I have asked of you which remain unanswered:

1) ) Can you give me a reasonable argument for why you believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, Word of God...yes or no? In other words, whose testimony are you relying on for your belief that the Bible is the Word of God? Can you give me the name of a person, or persons, or organization that you rely upon? You said you relied upon a "consensus of believers." Which believers? Who were they? When did they live? How do you know they were believers?

2) Will you admit that since you are not infallible, any or all of your private fallible interpretations of Scripture that you have written to me about could be wrong?

3) Is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, which is guided by the Holy Spirit, infallible?

4) What were the Galatians looking at if Jesus was publicly portrayed...before their eyes...as being crucified (Galatians 3:1)? You say it wasn't a crucifix - well, what was it then?

5) Is poor catechesis the same as false teaching?

6) If no human being is infallible, then how does a fallible human being write an infallible book (the books of the Bible)?

7) What church do you belong to? Is it infallible? Is it lead by sinners? Does it have teachers who make mistakes?

8) Where does the Bible say that you will know what is or is not the Word of God based on a "consensus of believers"?

9) Is it "Christian" to spread lies about what other people believe, especially if those lies are based on a willing and deliberate ignorance of those beliefs.

10) Who was it that made that final authoritative decision as to which books were and were not to be considered the inspired, inerrant, Word of God?

11) By whose authority were any of the books recognized as being inspired and inerrant, and by whose authority were the disputes about some of the books finally decided? Which "consensus of believers" decided these things?

12) How do you know Peter's letters are Scripture? Does the Bible say they are? If not, whose witness and testimony do you rely upon for that belief?

13) If you believe the Bible is what you believe it is based on a “consensus of believers,” then why do you not believe the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ based on that same “consensus of believers”?

14) If believers are "led by the Holy Spirit," then wouldn't that make them infallible? Or, are they led by the Holy Spirit only some of the time?

15) If I claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, then by what authority do you deny my claim?

I'll stop there, for now.

Okay, to respond to your comments: You say you are an ambassador of Christ. Well, Don, ambassador's are appointed, as Paul was, by someone other than themselves. Who exactly is it that appointed you as an "ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ"? Can you give me a name and what authority that person had to appoint you as such? Can you offer any proof that you are indeed an ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ?

Secondly, while it is very kind of you to share the "gospel of the grace of God" with my mailing list and me, please know that everyone on the mailing list - at least every Catholic on the mailing list - has heard the gospel and espoused belief in the gospel every time they have attended a Sunday Mass. As part of the liturgy, or what you might call the "worship service," we recite the Nicene Creed. As part of that Creed we profess the following:

"I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."

According to you, the "gospel that saves" or the "gospel of the grace of God" is wholly contained in the following statement (1 Cor 15:3-4): "...that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures..." And you believe that anyone who accepts this one passage of Scripture is irrevocably saved, right? Well, Don, all of the "gospel that saves" is fully contained in the Creed we recite every Sunday - as I have just shown you. The "gospel that saves," Don, is a part of the Creed every Catholic has heard since the very first Mass they attended, and have recited since they were old enough to speak. If you knew anything at all about the Catholic Faith - if you had the decency and the good will to be bothered to take any time whatsoever to learn about our faith that you think you know so much about - then you would have known this. Instead of asking Catholics, "Do you know the gospel that saves," which is a phraseology that most would be unfamiliar with, why don't you ask them this: "Who is it that died for your sins and was raised on the third day?" Every single one will answer: "Jesus Christ." You seem to think that they don't know something simply because they can't answer the question as you phrase it, that is an evil assumption on your part. Where does the Bible say they have to answer a question from Don Jackson in order to be saved?

So, since I have shown that Catholics believe in the "gospel that saves" and renew that belief at least once a week, then you no longer have to worry about us, Don. According to your theology, every Catholic on the face of the planet is saved and they have absolute assurance of their salvation. We're all going to Heaven, according to your theology. So, why don't you focus on the non-Catholics, or maybe even the non-Christians, for awhile?

Finally, you said that I gave you some Scripture verses in my very first response to you that "were not the gospel." By what authority do you declare yourself to be the arbiter of what is or is not "the gospel?"

Strategy/Comments

First, repeat the unanswered questions. And, again, I would ordinarily stop there and demand he answer my questions before I give him any further response. But, for reasons already stated, I'm not doing so this time around. But, you can see how, by responding to every one of his comments and questions, the number of my unanswered questions just keeps growing and growing. The same will be true for you.

Now, by using just a little bit of good ol' logic, Mr. Don Jackson can be backed rather easily into a theological corner. His whole belief system is predicated on the irrevocable salvation of anyone who believes in 1 Cor 15:3-4. Well, Catholics say, every Sunday, that they believe in everything contained in 1 Cor 15:3-4. So, by his logic and his theology, all Catholics everywhere are saved. So what if they can't answer his question: "What is the gospel by which we are saved?" to his satisfaction. Where does the Bible say that in order to be saved you have to answer Don Jackson's question? I thought all you had to do was believe? And, I am, once again, bringing up the question of his authority - which he has not answered (because he can't).

Don Jackson

Now, just a couple of points in your last correspondence to me:

John Martignoni

So, where in the Bible does it say that Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews? I love how you restrict what Catholics have to believe to just what is found in the Bible, but you get to believe in the Bible and...Tradition? What authority are you relying on for your assertion that Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews? I think you're just making that up, Don. Who told you that Paul wrote Hebrews? Furthermore, nowhere do I see the word "confine" in either passage you put forward to prove that Peter, James, and John agreed to "confine" their ministry to the "circumcision" or that Paul agreed to "confine" his ministry to the Gentiles. Is the word "confine" in your translation of the Bible? I don't believe it is. Why, then, are you adding words to the Bible? Doesn't Scripture pronounce curses upon folks like you who add words to the Bible? Yet another example I can point to to show that you really don't know what you're doing when it comes to interpreting the Bible. But, if you insist on interpreting it that way, then that means either Paul lied, or your interpretation is actually a "misinterpretation." First evidence of that is that you have admitted to a belief that Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews. Well, if he had agreed to "confine" his ministry to the Gentiles, then he broke his promise...he lied...by writing a letter to the Hebrews. Did Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, lie? Or, have you misinterpreted Scripture? Second evidence that either Paul lied or that you misinterpret Scripture is that everywhere Paul went, what was the first thing he did? He preached the Word of God - the gospel - to the Jews: Acts 9:20, Acts 13:5, Acts 13:15, Acts 14:1, Acts 17:1, Acts 17:10, Acts 17:17, Acts 18:4, Acts 18:8, Acts 18:19, and Acts 19:8 are a few examples of that. For someone who supposedly "confined" his ministry to the Gentiles, he really did a poor job of it, didn't he? So, was Paul a liar, or are you a bad interpreter of Scripture? Which is it?

And, you make the same mistake regarding the Lord's ministry as being to "only" the lost sheep of Israel. You are interpreting that word to mean that Jesus' mission was "confined" to the Jews, and only the Jews. Yet, if Jesus' ministry was "confined" to only the lost sheep of Israel, then why, in that same passage where it says He came only for the lost sheep of Israel (Matt 15:24-28), does it say that He ministered to a Canaanite woman and her daughter? Was Jesus lying just like Paul was lying? Or, is it yet another case of you not properly interpreting Scripture? And, in Romans 15:8, where it says that Jesus became a servant to the circumcised, where does it say that means His ministry (and His gospel) was meant only for the Jews? Doesn't the very next verse say that He came to the Jews so that the Gentiles might glorify God? And what about the Samaritans that Jesus spent two days preaching to (John 4:40-41)? Did He forget that He came "only" for the lost sheep of Israel? Here's the deal, Don, Jesus did come "only" for the Jews in the sense that God sent Him to Israel so that the gospel was first preached to the Jews, and that the Jews could then take it to all the nations...to the Gentiles. After all, is not "salvation from the Jews" (John 4:22)? And did Jesus not tell His Jewish Apostles to go and teach "all nations" (the Gentiles) and teach them (the Gentiles) to observe "all" that Jesus had commanded them (the Jews); (Matt 28:19-20)? You really want me to believe that Jesus gave one gospel for the Jews and a completely different gospel for the Gentiles? Really?!

Strategy/Comments

Don Jackson believes in the "right division" of Scripture. This is a perverse teaching that has developed, near as I can tell, in the last hundred years or so. It developed because you had folks who wanted to believe in salvation by faith alone, and in once saved always saved, and that there were no consequences to sin, and a bunch of other such things that went along with the dogma of Sola Fide. But there was a problem. You had all these passages in the Bible that directly contradicted your favorite dogma. So, what is a Sola Fide believer to do? Well, one of them pounced upon a phrase in the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible that says this: "'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth," (2 Tim 2:15). Aha! We must "rightly divide" the Word of God! So, there are parts of the Bible meant for us - the Gentiles - and other parts that were meant for the Jews, but not for us. So, since the Bible says Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, and that Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, then that must mean we Gentiles go by what Paul says, but not by what Jesus says? Boom! Problem solved (except, of course, for all of those pesky "works" passages and "sin" passages and "losing your salvation" passages that are found in Paul's letters). But, the thing is, that there are only two bibles that I know of - the KJV and the Geneva Bible - where that Greek word in 2 Tim 2:15 is translated as "rightly dividing." The Geneva Bible was first published in the late 1500's and the KJV in the early 1600's, which means that Christians had to wait at least 1500 years - until the Bible was "rightly translated" - in order to know that the Bible needed to be "rightly divided." Furthermore, neither the Calvinists who heavily influenced the Geneva translation, nor the Anglicans who did the KJV translation, believed "rightly dividing" meant what Don Jackson thinks it means. So, Don Jackson, who has demonstrated that he relies on tradition for a lot of things, has absolutely no tradition to support his version of "rightly dividing" the Bible. Besides, the Greek word that is translated as "rightly dividing," - orthotomeo - means to cut a straight path; to hold a straight course; or to teach the truth directly and correctly. So, "rightly dividing" actually means rightly handling or rightly teaching or rightly interpreting or something along those lines. Never does it mean to literally divide the Word of God. Once again, a serious misinterpretation of what the Bible is saying by Don Jackson and all who believe as he does.

Furthermore, do you see how he adds that word "confine" to what the Bible says? A lot of folks would have glossed right over that and just accepted what he was saying and then written me and asked, "How do I get around what he's saying here?" Well, you don't have to "get around" what he's saying, because what he is saying is a pile of Martin Luther. That word "confine" is not there. He has inserted it there because that word is necessary for his theology. Just like Martin Luther inserted the word "alone" in Romans 3:28 to make it say what he wanted it to say in order to fit his theology of salvation by faith "alone." Martin Luther added to Scripture. Don Jackson adds to Scripture. They have to, because Scripture doesn't actually say what they want it so badly to say.

And notice, how everything he says, just leads to more questions that can be asked of him. He claims Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews. Well, Paul indeed may have written that letter. But, the question is, who told Don Jackson that? The Bible? Nope - not in the Bible. Well, if he goes by the Bible alone, and the Bible doesn't tell him that Paul wrote Hebrews, then how does he come off claiming that Paul wrote Hebrews? He's being inconsistent. He's being a hypocrite. "I go by the Bible alone, except where the Bible doesn't support what I'm saying, then I go by whatever tradition I want to go by - or I just make things up - in order to support my pre-conceived un-biblical beliefs, but if what you say isn't in the Bible exactly as you say it or it doesn't fit with my fallible, man-made interpretation of the Bible, well then you're belief is not Christian." Yeah, right. Always pay very close attention to what the other guy is saying, folks. Question all of his contentions, all of his interpretations, the source of all of his information. I guarantee you that there is bad logic, bad interpretation of Scripture, and a reliance upon...horror of horrors..."tradition"! Make him (or her) explain all of it, and don't let them off the hook.

Don Jackson

John Martignoni

Ah yes, the Rapture. Let's look first, Don, at two other "Rapture" passages that you guys generally point to - Matthew 24:37-44 and Luke 17:26-36. In these passages we have two men in the field and one is taken and one is left; two women at the mill, one is taken and one is left. Pay close attention, please, to that word - "left". These are the two passages where the Left Behind series of books and movies got their name. The Christians - the true believers - are supposedly taken (raptured) and the bad guys (you know, us Catholics) are left behind. But there's a problem here, Don, with the "rapture" interpretation of these passages in light of the passage you cite in 1 Thessalonians 4. You see, in 1 Thess 4, it says that those who are left are caught up in the air to meet the Lord. Hmmm. So, in Matt 24 and Luke 17, you want to be the one left behind, because those who are left behind get to be caught up in the air to greet the Lord at His coming. Notice also, that while folks are caught up in the air to "meet the Lord," it doesn't say they are caught up in the air to "meet the Lord and then the Lord turns around and goes back to Heaven with them." That last part isn't in the Bible. Once again you are adding to Scripture. Furthermore, looking at Matt 24 and Luke 17, the Bible says the "day of the Lord" will be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Well, in the days of Noah, who was taken away by the flood and who was left behind? In the days of Lot, who was taken away by the fire and brimstone and who was left behind? The bad guys are taken away and the good guys are left behind. You see, Don, what's happening in those "left behind" passages is what Jesus told us would happen in Matthew 13:40-42, "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire..." The bad guys are taken, Don, the good guys are left behind - left behind to meet the Lord in the air as He comes to Earth for the 2nd and last time.

So, Don, the Catholic Church does not deny the "doctrine" of the rapture. The Church actually has no problem with 1 Thes 4 and the belief that some folk will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air - it just has a problem with your fallible, man-made interpretation of that passage. The Church denies the false doctrine that has been constructed on your twisted interpretation of these verses. Folks will indeed be caught up in the air, but it will be at the 2nd Coming of Christ at the end of time...not before. This passage simply describes an ancient custom. In the ancient world, when someone important would come to a town or city - a king or general, or such - many of the people in the town would go out and greet these important people and accompany them back to the city. It would be an insult not to go out and greet these important people! That still happens today. If the President flies into the airport, what happens? A lot of people go out to greet him. And, after they greet him at the airport, which in many cases is outside the city, what do they do? They escort him in a motorcade back to town. And that’s exactly how several of the Church Fathers, like St. Augustine and St. John Chrysostom, read this passage. They taught that those who are longing for Christ to come back are caught up to meet Him in the air, and then they are given the privilege...the privilege!... of escorting Him on the last leg of His return to earth. If you trust St. Polycarp in regard to the authenticity certain books of the New Testament, then what reason do you have to not trust St. Augustine and St. John Chrysostom in regard to their reading of this passage? This passage simply does not say that these folks meet Jesus in the air and then Jesus turns around with them and heads back to Heaven.

How do we know that’s not what it means? Because what happens at the Final Coming of Christ? Scripture tells us in Rev 21:1-3: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth...And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God...and I heard a great voice from the throne saying, ‘Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them...” Just as the Lord Himself descends from Heaven, so also does the New Jerusalem descend from Heaven. And the Scripture doesn’t say anything about the New Jerusalem returning to Heaven, just as Scripture doesn’t say anything about Jesus returning to Heaven. Because, Jesus, in essence, brings Heaven with Him...the New Jerusalem descending from Heaven...where we shall dwell with God. As Rev 11:15-18 puts it, “Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet (1 Thess 4:16 - the trumpet of God is blown), and there were loud voices in heaven saying, ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever....” The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord. Jesus returns and the earth and the heavens are transformed! And there is a new Heaven and a new earth, and “behold the dwelling of God is with men.” And He shall reign forever and ever...it doesn’t say that He will reign for a thousand years...it says forever and ever!

So, an interpretation of 1 Thes 4, that has the Lord descending from Heaven, stopping a mile or so above the earth, picking up His passengers, then doing a 180 and heading back to Heaven, is just that...an interpretation! And, it’s an interpretation that is not supported by the rest of Scripture! Also, very important in arguing against a “Rapture” interpretation of this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4, notice who all gets “caught up” to meet the Lord. It’s not just the living, but also the dead. Verse 16: “For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first...” There is a resurrection of the dead here! So, Rapture believers have to believe that not just the living in Christ disappear, but also that Christians who have died will rise from their graves and disappear as well! But there’s a problem here. A big problem! If we turn to the Gospel of John, chapter 6, we find something very interesting. John 6:54: “...he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the... last day.” The LAST DAY! Those who eat His flesh and drink His blood, whether you take that literally or symbolically, Jesus is talking about folks who believe in Him...they are Christians. And they will be raised when? On the last day before the tribulation starts? No, it doesn’t say that. On the last day before the appearance of the antichrist? No, it doesn’t say that. On the last day before Jesus starts His 1000-yr. reign on earth? No, it doesn’t say that either. It says on the last day...period! No qualifiers! John 6:39: “...and this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up at the last day.” John 6:44: “No man can come to me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the...last day. John 11:24: “Martha said to [Jesus], ‘I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection at the...last day.” How come Lazarus has to wait until the last day? Why can’t he be raised up at the Rapture with all the other believers in Christ? Why? Because there is no rapture before...the last day!

So, Don, the words of 1 Thess 4 do indeed give me great comfort and hope. Your false reading of that passage gives false hope and false comfort. And let's look at another passage you cite: 1 Cor 15:51 and following. I agree with that passage 100%! I disagree, however, with your fallible and faulty interpretation of that verse. You interpret it as the Rapture that is happening, you believe, at some point before the end of time. But look at verse 52, Don. It says we will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," at the "LAST trumpet." Which means, the trumpet that is sounded in 1 Thess 4 has to be the "last trumpet." But, there's a problem with that because, as I cited above, the last trumpet - the 7th trumpet - is blown in Revelation 11 as "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever." In other words, the last trumpet is blown at the end of time when the everlasting kingdom of God is inaugurated here on Earth. It isn't blown at the Rapture, or for the supposed 1000-yr. kingdom of Christ - no, it is blown when Earth and Heaven become one. And also notice, the last trumpet is blown when it is "time for the dead to be judged," (Rev 11:18), but you said "there is no judgment" associated with what is going on in 1 Thess 4. Well, is the trumpet blown in 1 Thess 4 the last trumpet or not? You can't have it both ways, Don.

Regarding Titus 2:13, once again I agree with that passage 100%. And, once again, I disagree with your fallible and flawed interpretation that it is referring to some pre-tribulation rapture. It is referring to the appearance of Christ and the revealing of His glory at the 2nd Coming at the end of time.

Strategy

The false "Left Behind" rapture interpretation that Don has, and that so many Protestants have, is one of the easiest things to show as being unscriptural. There are so many holes in it. I touched on several of them above, but for more about the Rapture and the Bible, go to the "Free CD's" page on our website (www.biblechristiansociety.com) and order a copy of the talk: The Rapture and the Bible. Or, get the free download on the "Free Downloads" page.

Don Jackson

John Martignoni

Don, please stop telling me what this or that priest said or what this or that Catholic said. Those are anectdotal stories and, quite frankly - with your apparent refusal to do even the smallest investigation into what the Catholic Church does or does not teach - you have not given me any confidence that you are an honest man. But, even if a Catholic priest did say that to you, so what?! Do you thereby believe that is what the Catholic Church teaches? I have heard Protestants who believe in the rapture and those who don't. Those who believe in once saved always saved, and those who don't. Those who believe in the "right division" of Scripture, and those who don't. Those who believe in salvation by faith alone, and those who don't. And all of them claim the Bible as their sole source of inspiration in these matters. So, does that mean the Bible teaches contradiction because the people who call themselves "bible believers" are full of contradictions? Well, by your logic it does. So, I will warn you just this one time - if your next response to me says anything about what this or that Catholic said - priest or not - in response to one of your questions (none of which I find in the Bible), and you interpret that as the Catholic Church itself teaching error, then I will no longer responsd to you. That is an egregious offense on your part against logic and against charity. The teachings of the Catholic Church are widely available for you - or anyone else for that matter - to look up and see for themselves. If there are folks who call themselves Catholic yet they are ignorant of those teachings, or they misunderstand those teachings, or they reject those teachings - well that's on them. But for you to portray the deficient answers of individuals as representative of the teaching of the Church, is malevolent and is of the devil and I will not deal with it any more. If an atheist, or anyone else for that matter, were to tell you that they had heard all kinds of crazy and contradictory answers coming from "bible-believing Christians" (as I have), so that must mean the Bible is false, would you accept that? I think not. Yet, that is the reasoning you use to believe in your own mind that the teachings of the Catholic Church are false. And you wish to tell me that you are an "ambassador of Christ"!? Sorry, but Christ's ambassadors don't lie like that.

And, so what if I "deny" that 1 Cor 15:1-4 is the "complete gospel of salvation"?! So what? By your theology, I'm still saved. I believe 1 Cor 15:1-4 is true. Isn't that all it takes to be saved, Don? You've claimed that it is. So, if there is something else that is required, then you are admitting that 1 Cor 15:1-4 is not the "complete gospel of salvation," that there is something else that needs to be done. Don, I believe, as do all Catholics, that Jesus "died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that He was buried, and that He was raised from the dead on the third day in accordance with the scriptures." Am I saved or not, Don? Yes or no?

Strategy

I responded to his garbage about what this Catholic said or what that Catholic said plenty of times. You don't have to keep taking crap that is being flung by the folks who are wallowing in it. Furthermore, according to his own logic, all one has to do to be saved is to believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4. Well, I believe that. So, by his logic, I can now worship Mary, worship statues, deny the Trinity, deny the virgin birth, deny that there is a Hell, and a whole bunch of other things, because I believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4, and that's all that matters. Which points up another huge flaw in the false dogma of salvation by faith alone.

Closing Comments

I hope you can see that by just paying close attention to what the other folks are saying, you can quite easily poke holes - using common sense, logic, and Scripture - in their arguments. I'm going to tackle the other half of his response in next week's newsletter. As you can see, responding point-by-point can get very lengthy and taxing and will, ultimately, probably get you no farther along than if you had just tackled one or two particular points. So, save yourselves time in a discussion with others and pick out a couple of arguments to respond to and use those arguments to move towards the question of authority. I've brought up authority here - and you notice he hasn't come close to touching that topic - but I haven't made it my main focus. Making authority your main focus will save you time and headaches, and help you to realize very quickly whether or not the person you're talking to is actually open to a discussion, or if they just want to preach but they don't want to listen.

Anyway, I hope all of you have safe travels this holiday weekend and a very happy and holy Thanksgiving with your loved ones. In that regard, here's an interesting article regarding what was actually the first Thanksgiving on American soil: http://taylormarshall.com/2013/11/6-interesting-catholic-thanksgiving.html.

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