Apologetics for the Masses #268

Topic

What is the Gospel? (cont'd)

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Introduction

Continuing the conversation from the last issue (http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/detail/338) with Mr. Don Jackson in regard to his question: "What is the gospel?" that he says he has asked many Catholics and received only "vast ignorance" in response. I will open with my closing statement from last week, then give his response, my reply, and then one more round of response and reply. I also give you the reasoning/strategy behind my replies. As a warning to those who like the shorter issues of this newsletter, this one is a little longer, but you can do it...

Challenge/Response/Strategy

My Response (last issue)

Dear Don,

Thank you for your well wishes in regards to my family. I would offer the same to you and yours.

Now, regarding your question about the "vast ignorance" of Catholics. I would offer a few thoughts. First of all, I will not deny that many who call themselves Catholic in this country are indeed ignorant of their faith and of the gospel (I would agree with Dr. Kreeft's purported comments to you). I will blame that on the lack of good catechesis within a lot of the Catholic Church during the past 50 years or so. I will also blame it on many within the Catholic school systems who often taught, and teach, a watered-down version of our faith. I will blame it on adults who don't really care to learn the truths of their faith even though there are plenty of opportunities for them to do so. And, I will blame it on the Bishops and priests for allowing the conditions for all of the above to exist in their dioceses and parishes. Such ignorance is one of the reasons I do what I do - teach Catholics about their faith. However, I will also say that there are a good many Catholics, and their numbers are growing, who are indeed well-versed in their faith. So, they could not be said to be ignorant about the basics of Christian teaching and practice.

Secondly, I would also say that Catholics often speak a different language when it comes to matters of faith than do many Protestants. So, it is quite possible that some of what you attribute to ignorance, could very possibly be the result of folks not fully understanding what exactly you were asking.

Thirdly, I would say that ignorance about authentic Christian teaching has existed in the Church since the beginning of the Church, as we see in the Scriptures themselves.

Having said all of that, I would tell you that I have found a "vast ignorance" among Protestants regarding something that is more basic than even the question you have asked of Catholics. And that is ignorance about the Word of God. Where did it come from? How do you know it is what you think it is? I claim these questions are more basic than your question, because most Protestants only accept the Bible as their source for authentic Christian teaching and practice. Yet, they don't know where their Bible - the source of their Christian beliefs - came from! They can't explain why they believe it to be the Word of God. How can you be sure of your beliefs, if you don't even know how the source of your beliefs came to be and that it is indeed what you claim it to be?

I have often asked Protestants, "How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?" or "Do you know where the Bible came from?" I have had a pastor tell me that it doesn't matter where the Bible came from or who actually wrote it, as long as it is the Word of God. When pressed, "Well, how do you know it is indeed the Word of God?" he had no answer. Or, I had another pastor tell me that God Himself had told that pastor that the Bible was the Word of God. Really?! One pastor told me that he knows because of the testimony of the early Christians. When I told him that sounded an awful lot like he was appealing to "tradition," which he had previously said he did not believe in, he had no answer. I have had other Protestants tell me that they "just know" the Bible is the Word of God, while others simply admit to not knowing where the Bible came from. So, my question to you is: How do you account for such vast ignorance among Protestants?

I have a question that I have asked any number of Protestants about the Bible, to which I have never once received a clear, cogent, logically-consistent, and scripturally-consistent answer. Perhaps you would like to take a shot at it: Can you give me the book, chapter, and verse from the Bible that states the Gospel of Mark was written by Mark and that Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write it? If you can't, then can you tell me how you know that the Gospel of Mark is indeed the inspired, inerrant, Word of God?

In Christ,

John Martignoni

Strategy
What Don is doing here is implying that the “vast ignorance” of Catholics about the “gospel that saves” is evidence that the Catholic Church is a false church and that Catholic teaching and practice is contrary to the “gospel that saves.” Are there a great number of Catholics who are indeed ignorant about their faith - about the Bible and God and salvation and oh so many other things related to the teachings of Christ? Absolutely. No use denying that, because it’s true. But, as bad as this ignorance is among Catholics, I can make the argument that it is even worse among Protestants. Most of them, including Don Jackson, have no clue as to where this book - the Bible - that they rely solely on for their beliefs, even came from. So if you are ignorant about the most fundamental aspect of your faith - how you got your Bible, where it came from, who put it together, whose testimony you rely on for believing it to be the inspired and inerrant Word of God, and so on - then what right do you have to be harping on the ignorance of others about their faith? None.

So, I just turned it around on him. He started off talking about this one question he asks Catholics and has never gotten an answer to, so I asked him the question that I have asked many Protestants and to which I have received answers betraying a “vast ignorance” among Protestants about how they got their Bible. What I am attempting to do is move this discussion from a question about “the gospel that saves,” to the question of authority. Who has the authority to decide what is and is not authentic Christian teaching and belief? Who had the authority to decide what is and is not the inspired and inerrant Word of God? Who has the authority to decide what is and is not authentic Christian teaching and practice? Who is it that can authoritatively interpret Scripture? Who?

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Don Jackson

John:

We don't know who wrote Mark. It was conjectured in the 2nd century that Mark wrote it, but we really don't know that for sure.

The issue that we are discussing is the gospel that saves. Don't get off on a side track.

FYI the gospel that saves is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Paul calls this the gospel by which you are saved [vs 2]. Further, he writes in Ephesians 1:13 that we "hear" the gospel, we "believe" the gospel and God the Holy Spirit "seals" us. When we are saved we are complete in the Lord Jesus Christ [Colossians 2:10]. What could be better? BTW, did you know that the phrase "in Christ" is found some 77 times in the New Testament. It is not found in the 4 gospels, it is found 1 time in Acts, 2 times in 1 Peter and 74 times in Paul's epistles.

Grace and peace,

Don J.

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John Martignoni

Don,

Sorry, but the question of how one knows the Bible is indeed the inspired, inerrant Word of God is not a "side track" issue. It is fundamental to any question about the Christian faith. And it is particularly fundamental to those who believe, as you do, in the dogma of Sola Scriptura - the Bible alone as the sole rule of faith for Christians. You have admitted that you don't know who wrote Mark. I commend you on your honesty and forthrightness. But, if you don't know who wrote it, then how do you know it is the inspired, inerrant Word of God? You, as a Sola Scriptura adherent, see the Bible as your sole authority in matters of faith and morals, yet you cannot give me a reasonable argument for how you know the Bible is what you believe it to be? If the bible doesn't tell you that the Gospel of Mark is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then what authority are you relying on for your belief that it is?

Now, regarding the gospel by which we are saved, I agree 100% with 1 Cor 15:1-4. But, I have a question for you, why did you stop at verse 4? Aren't verse 5 and verse 6 and verses 7 and 8 part of the gospel by which we are saved? I mean, those verses also recount what Paul "delivered" to the Corinthians (verse 3). So why did you stop at verse 4? Do verses 3 and 4, in your fallible opinion, constitute the entirety of the "gospel by which you are saved"?

What about 1 Peter 3:21 which says, "Baptism...now saves you?" Is that not part of the "gospel by which one is saved"? I mean, that's pretty clear, isn't it...Baptism now saves you? Do you disagree that Baptism saves us as the Word of God says? And, when Jesus is asked directly, "What must I do to have eternal life?" do you know how He answers the question? Is Jesus' answer not part of the "gospel that saves"? Would you answer the question the same way Jesus did?

I look forward to your response...

In Christ,

John Martignoni

Strategy
Don wants to stick to his “pet” teaching regarding the “gospel that saves,” which he tells us is in 1 Cor 15, verses 1-4. Sorry, but I’m not going to let him set the parameters of this discussion. 1 Cor 15:1-4 is his sweet spot. That, for him, is the most important thing one needs to know, and maybe even the only thing one needs to know. Well, I’m not denying the importance of the “gospel that saves” or of 1 Cor 15:1-4, by any means. The problem with what Don is doing, though, is that he is making 1 Cor 15:1-4 a verse that trumps all other verses in the Bible. This is a common practice among folks who are attacking/questioning the Catholic Faith. They have a verse, or a few verses, that override all other verses, so whatever Scripture verses you give them to support Catholic teaching, well those simply don’t count as much as their verses do. So, if you do not accept their view about which verse is the most important, if you do not accept the overall way in which they interpret the Bible, then you’ve got it wrong and you’re not saved! It’s an issue of authority.

Notice that he admits that he has no idea who wrote the Gospel of Mark. So, if he has no clue who wrote it, then how does he know it is inspired? By what authority does he declare Mark, or any other book of the Bible, to be the inspired Word of God? Who told him? But, in order to get out of the jam, he simply dismisses my question about the Bible as a “side issue.” Don can’t answer the question - as most like him cannot - so he has to dismiss it.

Now, you might be wondering why I asked him about verses 5-8 in 1 Corinthians 15. Because they were part of what Paul “delivered” to the Corinthians (verse 3), but Don apparently does not consider them to be a part of the “gospel that saves,” even though they are part of the same sentence as verses 3 and 4, which he does consider to be the “gospel that saves.” In other words, he is deciding for himself, and for all of us, exactly what is and is not the “gospel that saves.” By what authority does he do that? I’ll wait for the right time to ask him that...

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Don Jackson

Hello John:

I am delighted to greet you in the exalted name of my Lord and my Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He is coming soon [in the air] to catch me up and so shall I ever be with Him. We are to “comfort one another with these words.” [1 Thess. 4:13-18].

You are so right, I am not infallible. Neither are you nor any other human being. The gospel of the grace of God is foundational for all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ in this dispensation of the grace of God [Eph. 3:2]. Paul calls this “my gospel” and it is found in the “God Breathed” Bible in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

I am happy to know that you agree with Paul “100%.” Now you can say [with Paul] that you are “sealed by the Holy Spirit until the redemption of your body,” [Eph. 1:13; 4:30]. You can say with Paul that you are “complete in Him” [Col. 2:10] And you can rejoice knowing that nothing can be added to this completeness.

1 Cor. 15:,5,6,7,8, are verses verifying the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul verifies this by the many witnesses he mentions. BTW, have you noticed that the crucifix leaves my Savior hanging as a corpse, on the cross?

1 Peter 3:21 – Now we get into the most divisive doctrine in Christendom - baptism. As you undoubtedly know, water baptism is always a cleansing and was given to Israel under the law. In Ex. 19:5,6, we are told that Israel is to become a kingdom of priests. Peter quotes these verses in confirming this truth in 1 Peter 2:9.. The initiatory rite into this Jewish priesthood was the cleansing [washing] of water baptism [Ex. 29:4; 40:12]. You may want to see Hebrews 9:10 where the word “washings” is baptismo.

Peter was an apostle to the circumcision – Gal. 2:9. James, Peter and John agreed to confine their ministry to Israel. 1 & 2 Peter, James and 1,2,3 John are written to the Jews. There are no “twelve tribes scattered abroad” in the Body of Christ. Israel had to undergo the “baptism of repentance” for murdering their Messiah [Mark 1:4; Acts 2:38].

But now [you should study the “but nows” in Paul’s epistles] Paul writes that “Christ sent me not to baptize” and “I am glad that I baptized none, but ………” [1 Cor. 1:14 & 17]. If water baptism saves in this dispensation of the grace of God – and it doesn’t – then Paul made a couple of strange statements as cited. It is obvious that water baptism was not part of what Paul calls “my gospel.”

Peter, in early Acts addresses only Israel. He presents our Lord in resurrection to be “ A Prince and a Savior……” to Israel [Acts 5:31]. This is in marked contrast to Paul presenting our Lord in resurrection to be Head of the Church [Eph.. 1:22,23 and Col. 1:18].

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John Martignoni
Dear Don,

Thank you again for being honest. First, you admitted to not knowing who wrote the Gospel of Mark, which essentially means for you, as a Sola Scriptura believer, that you have no way of actually knowing that the Gospel of Mark is the inspired Scripture. And now, you admit to not being infallible. Which essentially means, that everything you have written to me, could be wrong, couldn’t it? Will you admit to that? Will you admit that you could be wrong in your interpretations of Scripture and that you could mistakenly be following the father of all lies by relying on your own private, fallible, non-authoritative, man-made interpretations of Scripture?

You are also correct in saying that I am not infallible, I have never claimed to be. But then, I do not follow my own teachings based solely upon my own authority and my own private interpretations of Scripture as you do, so I have no need of being infallible. You, however, relying on your own authority and your own private interpretations, which you have admitted could be wrong, have need of being infallible - but you’re not. Very scary place to be.

You said that no human being is infallible. But let me ask you this: Is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, and which is guided by the Holy Spirit, infallible...yes or no?

Don, I would be very happy to discuss with you the “gospel that saves” and how you have badly misinterpreted Scripture in regard to salvation and baptism and the rapture and the gospel and how you are wrongly dividing the New Testament up into parts that you believe are meant solely for the Jews and parts that you believe are meant solely for the Gentiles. Again, I’m happy to take up these issues with you. But first, we need to address a fundamental issue about the Bible itself, before we can address issues that are found in the Bible.

So, I will ask you again: Please give me a reasonable argument for how you know the Bible is what you believe it to be? If the bible doesn't tell you that the Gospel of Mark is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then what authority are you relying on for your belief that it is?

Now, I will address one of your points, just to show you that your interpretations of Scripture leave a lot to be desired. Regarding what you said about “the crucifix leaves my Savior hanging as a corpse, on the cross,” I will point you to Galatians 3:1, “Oh foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” What were the Galatians looking at if Jesus was publicly portrayed...before their eyes...as being crucified?

Furthermore, you might want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? 1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? The crucified Christ is the “power of God and the wisdom of God.” We have crucifixes to remind us of all of these things. Please tell me where Scripture forbids it?

In the power of the crucified Christ,

John Martignoni

Strategy
I am sticking to my main question about the Bible and how he knows it is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. I am not going where he wants to go until he can tell me how he knows, since it’s not in the Bible, that Mark is the inspired Word of God. I will go one, maybe two more rounds with him to see if he will ever answer that question. If he doesn’t, then we’re done. If he wants a conversation, then he needs to converse. If he just wants to preach, I don't want to listen.

I advise the same for all of you in your discussions. While salvation, baptism, Mary, the Pope, Purgatory, the Sacraments, and so on are all important topics, the issue beneath all of them is: authority. Get to the issue of authority as soon as possible and stay there until they have answered your questions in a logically and scripturally consistent manner, which they cannot do unless they admit that the Bible is a gift that came...from God...through the Catholic Church. That it was the Church that decided which books were and were not supposed to be in the Bible. If they don't answer after 3 tries, then simply tell them the conversation is over. And, if they ever admit that we have the Bible because of the Catholic Church, then they have problems with the next set of questions: “Well, if you admit the Church had the authority to canonize Scripture, then why do you only have 66 books in your Bible?” “Why do you accept the authority of the Church regarding the Bible, but not when it comes to the Sacraments, or Mary, or Purgatory, or any of these other “Catholic” teachings? It’s the same authority for one as it is the others.” And so on...

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week!

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