Apologetics for the Masses #379

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Topic

You Catholics and Your Beliefs About Mary!

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General Comments

Hey folks,

Just wanted to let you know that I will begin taping my series - Balaam's Ride - this coming Wednesday, September 30th, from 6:00 PM - 10:00 PM. We'll be taping three shows which will air in October, beginning the week of October 12th. I will send out more information this coming Monday or Tuesday, but you will, if you would like, be able to watch the shows live, as we tape them, through the HTV10 Facebook page. I'll be sending out a toll free number you can use to call in with a question or comment. Or, you can email me your questions and I will be answering a few of those on each of the weekly programs.

For those of you who have volunteered to call in with questions, I'll be sending you a separate email at the beginning of the week. And it's not too late to volunteer to call-in with your questions or comments. I could use a few more folks to do so.

And, again, even though the program will be broadcast locally in Houma, LA, if you download the HTV10 app on your smart TV or phone, you can watch it anywhere in the world when it airs. I'll be sending out the schedule of when it airs each week.

Please keep this effort in your prayers...

John

Introduction

The last couple of issues were responses to Minister Brady Tarr's (Hunter Street Baptist Church) assault on Catholic teaching in regard to Mary. I was going to move on and address one more topic that Minister Tarr mentioned in his anti-Catholic presentation to his church - Sola Fide - but decided, before I do that, I would give a relatively quick summary of several areas where Protestants object to Catholic teaching on Mary. So, below I will talk about Praying to Mary, the Immaculte Conception, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Mary as Mother of God, Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant, the Assumption, and Mary as Queen of Heaven.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Praying to Mary?

Objection: Why do you pray to Mary instead of going straight to God?

Response: Would you pray for me if I asked you to? I believe your response would be, “Yes, I will pray for you.” Why wouldn’t you say instead: “Why are you asking me to pray for you instead of going straight to God?”

When we “pray” to Mary, or any of the saints, we are not praying to them as if they have the power and authority to answer our prayers in and of themselves. We do not view them as being like God in that sense. Rather, what Catholics mean when they say they “pray” to Mary or the saints is that we are asking them for their prayers. We are asking them, in essence, to add their prayers to ours. For example, in the Hail Mary we say, “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death, Amen.”

So, just as it is okay to ask a member of the Body of Christ here on earth to pray for you, it is okay to ask a member of the Body of Christ in Heaven to pray for you. As James 5:16 says, “The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” Who is more righteous than the saints in Heaven who have been perfected and who are in perfect union with Christ?

Objection: But the Bible says Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5) and doesn’t say anything about Mary or the saints being mediators.

Response: Just as asking for prayers from a member of the Body of Christ here on earth in no way impinges on Jesus’ role as the sole mediator between God and man, just so asking for prayers from a member of the Body of Christ in Heaven in no way impinges on Jesus’ role as the sole mediator between God and man.

Mary and the saints are able to share in Jesus’ role as mediator because they are members of His body. And that is why we are able to pray to God for one other - to mediate for another with God - because we, too, are members of the Body of Christ. As a member of His body, we share in His role as mediator, not in the same way that He is - true God and true man - and certainly not to the same extent and only by His power and authority and grace. So He is indeed the sole mediator, but He has a head and a body, and the Head shares that role with the body.

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Mary - Queen of Heaven?

Many non-Catholic Christians object to Catholics referring to Mary as the Queen of Heaven. In Jeremiah, chapter 7, verse 18, we see God getting upset with the children of Israel because they were making offerings to a false goddess referred to as the “queen of heaven”. “See, you Catholics refer to Mary as the Queen of Heaven, you are worshipping a false goddess!” Well, let’s look at the logic of that.

   The reasoning goes that because there is a false goddess called the “queen of Heaven,” that if we then call Mary the “queen of heaven,” we are necessarily worshipping a false goddess. The same reasoning would suggest that if there is a false god that worshippers of this false god call “god,” if we then call the real God, “God,” we are necessarily worshipping a false god. Not very good logic, is it?
     If I use the word “God” in reference to my God, does that mean that I am worshipping a false god? After all, I’m using the same term for the real God that the pagan’s use for their false god. That is a ridiculous argument! And think about it - if there is such a thing as a “false god,” juxtaposed against the real God, then if there is a false “queen of Heaven,” wouldn’t that kind of point to the fact that there is a real “queen of Heaven”?
   Rev 12:1, “And a great portent appeared in Heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” Let’s see. It’s a woman. She’s in Heaven. And, she has a crown on her head. The crown signifies that this woman is either a queen, or, at the very least a princess. Is this woman a false goddess? Obviously not when you read the rest of the passage. Well then, who is this woman?
   Rev 12:5: “…she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron…” The male child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron is Jesus Christ. And, just in case you have any doubt about that, look at: Rev 19:15-16, “…and He will rule them with a rod or iron; He will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh He has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.” Jesus Christ is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.
   Therefore, since Jesus is the male child, the woman who bears the male child must be Mary. Now, some will say that the woman who brings forth the male child, the Savior, is the Church. At a certain level, that is indeed true because it is the Church that bears Jesus to the world, but the Church did not originally bring forth Jesus, Jesus brought forth the Church. Others will say it is Israel, which, is also true at a certain level, since Jesus was without a doubt a son of the nation of Israel.
   But, look at the passage, carefully. It is talking about individuals. The male child – Jesus. And, in verse 9 we see that there is this dragon that is identified as Satan. It also speaks of Michael and his angels in verse 7. All real persons. So, at the fundamental level of interpretation, the woman must be a real person as well, she is not a purely symbolic reference. The woman is Mary.
   Which means, this woman - Mary - is the mother of the king. The mother of the king is also known as the Queen Mother. Which is why she has a crown on her head. So, using the title of Queen of Heaven for Mary is something that is perfectly legitimate, and is backed up 100% by the Bible.

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Mary - Mother of God?

Objection: How can Mary be God’s mother, that would make her older than God, and that’s not possible.

Response: Mary is the mother of the person of Jesus Christ, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, in His human nature. Catholics do not claim that Mary gave birth to the divine nature of Jesus, nor to the divine nature of the Father or of the Holy Spirit. Mary is a creature. She was created by God. She was also given the privilege of being the mother of the 2nd person of the Trinity…the mother of God. A mystery? Absolutely. Do our finite minds fully comprehend what happened? No! But, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, just because we cannot fully understand it. If that were the case, then the Trinity could not exist, because we certainly cannot understand that one either.

Is the Jesus Who walked the earth 2000-years ago God...yes or no? Yes, He is. Is Mary the mother of Jesus? Yes, she is. Conclusion: Mary is the mother of God.

Objection: Mary is the mother of Jesus the man, but not the mother of Jesus as God.

Response: Mary Lk 1:41-43, “…and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? The mother of my Lord. Aren’t the Lord and God the same thing? Who is Elizabeth’s Lord? Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ the man? Or, Jesus Christ the 2nd person of the Trinity?

Psalm 68, verse 4: “Sing to God, sing praises to His name…His name is the Lord.” And, in verse 20 of that Psalm, it says, “Our God is a God of salvation; and to God, the Lord, belongs escape from death.” Who escaped from death? Jesus. The “Lord” and “God” are synonymous terms…Mary is the mother of my Lord…Mary is the mother of God! In John, chapter 20, Thomas doesn’t say, “My Lord or my God.” He says, “My Lord and my God.” Jesus is Lord. Jesus is God. Jesus is Lord because He is God. If Mary is the mother of the Lord, she is the mother of God! The two cannot be separated!

Those who say Mary was the mother of Jesus the man, but not the mother of God, separate Jesus the man, from Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity. In so doing, they commit an ancient heresy. Jesus was, and is, a divine person Who is fully God and fully man.

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Mary - Immaculate Conception? And Sinless?

Was Mary conceived without the stain of Original Sin? And did she live a life free from all sin? What does the Bible say?

Argument Against: The Bible nowhere uses the words, “Immaculate Conception”.

Response: True. However, the Bible also never mentions the word, “Trinity”. Yet, that is a fundamental dogma of Christianity. Also, the Bible never gives us a list of the books that are supposed to be in the Bible. Yet, we believe the books in our Bibles are inspired by God. Why? The words “altar call” are not in Scripture. The words, “Wednesday night church meeting,” are not in Scripture. Yet, many non-Catholic Christians have altar calls and go to church every Wednesday night - even though neither of those things is found in the Bible. The word “rapture” is not in the Bible; yet, again, many non-Catholic Christians believe in the rapture. So, just because a word, or a phrase, doesn’t appear directly in the Bible, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be believed by Christians.

Argument Against: The Bible says “all have sinned,” (Rom 3:23), so that would include Mary.

Response: The Bible also says, in Romans chapter 3, that “None is righteous, no not one,” (Rom 3:10). Yet, the Bible is filled with people who are called “righteous” - Gen 6:9 (Noah), Psalms 14:5 (a whole generation of righteous folks), Luke 1:6 (Zechariah and Elizabeth), James 5:16 (the prayer of a righteous man), and many more places throughout the Old and New Testaments where the righteous are spoken of. So, either the Bible contradicts itself, or Romans 3:10 is not an absolute.

Also, in Romans 3, it says “No one does good, not even one,” (Rom 3:12). Yet, in many places throughout the Bible people’s good works and good deeds are spoken of. Again, is this a contradiction in God’s Word, or when Scripture says “no one...not even one,” it is not speaking in absolute terms?

One more example, from this same passage in Romans 3 that tells us “all have sinned.” Rom 3:11, “...no one seeks for God.” Are you seeking for God? I am. I know a lot of other people who are, as well. I’ll bet you are, too. But the Bible tells us “no one” is seeking God. So what’s going on here?

What’s going on is that Paul is not talking in absolute terms about all individuals who have walked the earth. He is talking about two groups of people - Jews and Greeks. And he is telling the Jews that they, like the Greeks (or the Gentiles), are also sinners. We see this in verse 9 of Romans 3. So, when Paul says that “all” have sinned, he means members of both groups, not necessarily absolutely all people who have ever lived. If he was speaking in absolutes, then what about Jesus? Did He sin? Of course not! So, there is at least one exception to “all have sinned,” which means it is not an absolute. And, if there is one exception, that allows for the possibility of another.

Argument Against: The Bible never says Mary didn’t sin.

Response: Nowhere does the Bible say she did sin. And, Scripture indirectly supports the teaching that Mary was immaculately conceived and that she never sinned. For example, the Holy Spirit, through Elizabeth, says Mary is “Blessed among women.” If Eve was created without sin (and she was), then for Mary to be more blessed than Eve, she would have to have been created without sin. Also, there is Genesis 3:14-15: “The Lord said to the serpent…I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” This is a clear reference here in Genesis to Jesus Christ conquering Satan, crushing Satan’s head. This verse is known as the protoevangelium - the first gospel.

And Jesus is the seed of what woman? This is the only place in Scripture that I know of where it mentions the woman’s seed, and not the man’s seed. We normally associate the seed with the man, not the woman. And, of course we know why it says the seed of the woman here in Genesis, because Mary conceived Jesus of the Holy Spirit – not of man. So, the woman spoken of in Gen 3:15 is, in a very fundamental sense, Mary. Now, what do we have going on here? God Himself tells Satan that He, God, will put enmity between the woman, Mary, and Satan. Enmity, in my dictionary, is defined as “hostility between enemies”. If you sin, can you say that there is enmity between you and Satan? By sinning, aren’t you actually taking Satan’s side? So, if God Himself put enmity between Mary and Satan, how can you say that she ever sinned? That would put her on Satan’s side, at least some of the time.

Also, we have more evidence of the sinlessness of Mary from Revelation, chapter 12. In Revelation 12 we have the woman who brought forth the male child Who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron. This child is Jesus Christ (see Revelation 19:15-16). Who is the mother of Jesus Christ? Mary. So, just as in Genesis 3:15 we see Mary being referred to at a fundamental level, so also the same can be said for Revelation 12:1-6.

And what does it say about this “woman” in Revelation 12? It says the dragon - Satan - pursued her (verse 13), but that the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness (verse 14). In other words, Satan pursued Mary, but he never caught her because of some special grace that God provided for her (see also verses 15 and 16). Hmmm. What could that be referring to? If Mary had ever sinned, then Satan would have indeed caught her.

So, regarding the Immaculate Conception, here’s the thing - if God created Eve without sin, couldn’t He have done the same for Mary? And, who is greater, the woman who was the instrument through which salvation came into the world, or the woman who was the instrument through which sin came into the world?

Argument Against: The Bible says God was Mary's Savior (Luke 1:47). If she was without sin, she wouldn't need a Savior.

Response: Are you a drug addict? I'm assuming you're not and never have been. So, would you say that God saved you from being a drug addict? Of course it was by the grace of God that you were saved from being a drug addict, before you ever became one. And by His grace you were saved from any number of sins before you ever committed them and He saved you from any number of addictions before you ever fell into them, just as He saved you from whatever sins you did commit and whatever addictions you did fall into. In other words, God's grace can save someone from some evil before they ever fall into that evil, can't He? Well, that's the same principle being applied to Mary and the fact that she needed a Savior. God did indeed save Mary, but He saved her before she ever became a sinner.

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Mary - Perpetual Virgin?!

How could Mary be a perpetual virgin when the Bible states, pretty clearly, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?

Mark 6:3, “Is not this the carpenter [Jesus], the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses, and Judas and Simon, and are not His sisters here with us?”

Hmmm. Looks pretty convincing. Until you realize a few things:

1) There was no word for cousin, or for nephew or niece, or for aunt or uncle, or for step-brother or step-sister in ancient Hebrew or Aramaic – the words that the Jews used in all those instances were “brother” or “sister”.

An example of this, from Scripture:

Gen 14:14, “Now when Abram [Abraham] learned that his brother [Lot] had been taken captive…” Your translation might say “kinsman” because the translator knew that Lot was not Abram’s brother, but the actual word used in the Hebrew is “brother”.

Lot, was Abram’s nephew, not his brother.

Gen 11:27, “Terah was the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran was the father of Lot.”
So, Lot was Abram’s, or Abraham’s, nephew. Yet, Scripture refers to him as Abraham’s “brother”. Very interesting.

2) Scripture makes the case for Mary’s perpetual virginity:

Matthew 27:55-56, “There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him; among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Matthew 27:55-56, Mark 15:40, Luke 24:10, and John 19:25 make it obvious that the James and Joses mentioned in Mark 6:3, were the sons of a woman named Mary, but not Mary the mother of Jesus. So the brothers and sisters mentioned there were kinfolk of Jesus, but they were not immediate brothers and sisters.

Galatians 1:19, “But I saw none of the other Apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” In Matthew 10:2-4, we see a list of the Apostles. Two of them were named “James”. So, if James is the Lord’s brother, as in a son of Mary and Joseph, then we would expect to find a “James” in the list of the Apostles who is identified as the “son of Joseph”. But, guess what? No, James, the son of Joseph. There is James the son of Zebedee and the other James is identified as the son of Alphaeus. So, once again, the Lord’s “brother” is not a son of Mary the mother of Jesus.

Ezekiel 44:2, “This gate [of the sanctuary] will remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore, it shall remain shut.”

St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and other Church Fathers regarded this gate through which the Lord entered His temple as being synonymous with Mary. No one, other than the Lord, enters by her.

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Mary - Ark of the New Covenant?

What did the Ark of the Old Covenant contain?
1) The Ten Commandments - the Word of God in stone
2) The staff of the high priest Aaron
3) The manna that fell from Heaven in the desert.

What did the new Ark of the Covenant - Mary - contain in her womb?
1) Jesus Christ - the Word of God in flesh
2) The high priest Himself - Jesus
3) The “true bread” which came down from Heaven - John 6:31-51

   Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. And just as the Ark of the Old Covenant was holy (2 Chronicles 35:3), so Mary is even holier as she contained not inanimate objects which represented God, but God Himself...in the flesh.
   Scripture concurs: Rev 11:19, “Then God’s temple in Heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant was seen within His temple; and there were flashes of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, and earthquake, and heavy hail.” Now, remembering that there were no chapters and verses in the original, right after John says the ark of the covenant is seen, what is the very next verse?
   Rev 12:1, “And a great portent appeared in Heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”
   The ark of the covenant is seen within the temple in Heaven and the very next verse speaks of this woman. And who is this woman?
   Rev 12:5 “…she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron…” The male child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron…is Jesus Christ. And, just in case you have any doubt about that, look at: Rev 19:15-16, “…and He will rule them with a rod or iron; He will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh He has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.” Jesus Christ is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.
   Therefore, since Jesus is the male child, the woman who bears the male child must be Mary. Some will say that the woman who brings forth the male child, the Savior, is the Church. At one level of interpretation, that makes sense, because it is the Church that bears Jesus to the world, but the Church did not originally bring forth Jesus, Jesus brought forth the Church. Others will say it is Israel, which, is also true at a certain level, since Jesus was indeed a son of the nation of Israel. But, look at the passage, carefully. It is talking about real persons. The male child – Jesus - is a real person. St. Michael and the angels (verse 7) are all real persons. And, in verse 9 we see that there is this dragon that is identified as Satan - a real person. So, at a fundamental level of interpretation, the woman must be a real person as well, rather than a purely symbolic reference. And the real person who brought forth the male child...is Mary.
   So, this woman in Heaven, with a crown on her head, who is essentially revealed as the Ark of the Covenant, who brings forth the male child who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron - is Mary. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.
   The ark of the old covenant contained the staff of Aaron the high priest; the ark of the new covenant contained the high priest Himself. The ark of the old covenant contained the manna from Heaven - the bread that God fed the Israelites with in the desert; the ark of the new covenant contained the living bread from Heaven - the bread which, unlike the manna, a man could eat and not die (John 6:48-51). The ark of the old covenant contained the Word of God - the Ten Commandments - in stone; the ark of the new covenant contained the Word of God in the flesh.

   Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a fascinating parallel between 2nd Samuel, chapter 6 and Luke, chapter 1 that gives further scriptural support to the notion that Mary is indeed the ark of the new covenant:
   2 Sam 6:2, “And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale Judah [which was a city in Judah] to bring up from there the ark of God.” Lk 1:39, “In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah…”
   2 Sam 6:9, “…and David said, ‘How can the ark of the Lord come to me?’” Lk 1:43, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
   2 Sam 6:10, “…but David took [the ark] aside to the house of Obededom the Gittite.” Lk 1:40, “and she entered the house of Zechariah…”
   2 Sam 6:11, “And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months.” Lk 1:56, “And Mary remained with [Elizabeth] about three months…”
   2 Sam 6:12, “So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom to the city of David with rejoicing…” Lk 1:47, “…and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior…”
   2 Sam 6:15, “So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting..” Lk 1:42, “…and [Elizabeth] exclaimed with a loud cry…”
   Mary, the God-bearer, the Ark of the New Covenant.

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Mary - Assumed into Heaven?

     Another Catholic teaching - the Assumption of Mary - nowhere mentioned in Scripture. So, are Catholics going against Scripture when we believe in the Assumption of Mary? In Heb 11:5 and 2 Kings 2:11, Enoch and Elijah, respectively, appear to have been assumed into Heaven. So, the Assumption of Mary, as a possibility, is not counter to Scripture. Mention those passages to folks and you have established the Catholic principle, from the Bible, that someone being assumed into Heaven, body and soul, before the end of time, is not contrary to Scripture. The examples of Enoch and Elijah show just that. And there is a passage in Rev 11:7-12 where these two witnesses from God are assumed, body and soul, into Heaven.
     So, the principle of the Assumption is not contrary to Scripture. If it can be done for them, why not for Mary? Is there a direct statement in the Bible that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven? No! But, neither is there a direct statement that says she wasn’t assumed, body and soul, into Heaven.
   Is there some strong evidence in Scripture that Mary was assumed into Heaven? Oh, yeah. Rev 12:1, “And a great portent appeared in Heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” In the rest of the book of Revelation, it talks about the “souls” of those in Heaven. Here we see that there is a woman in Heaven who has a body - not just a soul - her head and feet are mentioned and her body is “clothed” with the sun. Who is she? Well, as it says in verse 5 of chapter 12, she is the mother of the male child who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron. In other words, she is the mother of Jesus Christ - Mary. It’s right there in the Bible.
        Now, some will say, “No, the woman is Israel - Jesus is a son of Israel.” Others will say the woman is the Church - the Church brings Jesus to the world. At some level, both of these interpretations are true. But, at the most fundamental level, this passage is talking about Jesus - a real person - and it goes on to talk about Satan - a real person - and it talks about St. Michael and his angels - all real persons - so you want me to believe that it’s talking about all these real persons, but the other person mentioned - the woman - is merely a symbol?! Sorry...

Closing Comments

Next issue will close out the dissection of Minister Brady Tarr's oh so biased presentation on the Catholic Church. I hope all of you have a great week!

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