Apologetics for the Masses #377 - Hunter Street Baptist Church (Part 3 - Mary)

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Topic

Minister Brady Tarr's Anti-Catholic Presentation - Mary

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General Comments

Hey folks,

As I mentioned in the last newsletter, I will be starting a weekly television show - Balaam's Ride - in October (it's actually going to debut the 2nd week of October - October 12th - not the 1st week as I said last time). Two things that I would like for you to do, if you would be so kind:

1) Please try downloading the HTV10 app on your smart TV. I would like to know if anyone has any problems with the download. I was able to download it on my Roku TV, so I figure if I can do it, pretty much anyone should be able to do it. Please let me know if you cannot.

2) I would like to have phone calls and emails during the show, but the shows will, at least initially, all be taped. Which means...we will need folks to call in beforehand and leave questions on voicemail (e.g., "Hello, this is Rebecca in Hays, Kansas, and I had a Baptist friend ask me why Catholics pray to Mary...") and also to send in email questions. Can I get volunteers who would be willing to call in and email questions and comments? I'll have a number to call and the topics of the shows we'll be recording probably in a couple of weeks. Let me know if you would be willing to volunteer to call or email in a question. Thanks!

Also, here is a weekly schedule for the show:

- The one hour version of the show will air: Monday - Friday @ 1:30 PM, and Monday and Tuesday @ 3:30 PM.

- The half hour version of the show will air: Monday - Friday @ 5:00 PM, Saturday and Sunday @ 11:30 AM, and Monday - Sunday @ 5:00 AM

Introduction

Okay, this is the third installation in my analysis/response to a very anti-Catholic presentation made at the Hunter Street Baptist Church here in Birmingham by one of their ministers - Brady Tarr. We've covered the questions of authority and the Eucharist in the last two issues, this week the focus will be on Mary.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Minister Brady Tarr of Hunter Street Baptist Church

[Minister Tarr gave the following Bible verses to "prove" Mary was not sinless.]

Is Mary Sinless? Biblical Response

1 Kings 8:46, "...for there is no one who does not sin..."

Ecclesiastes 7:20, "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."

Psalm 14:2-3, "The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together tha have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one."

Romans 3:10-12, "...as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Galatians 3:21-22, "For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everthing under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

[Minister Tarr then goes on to say] The Bible never says that Mary is sinless, but the bible does say that all have sinned. Is the bible or the tradition of the Catholic Church wrong?

My Comments

Minister Tarr is absolutely correct, the Bible never directly says that Mary is sinless and it does indeed directly say that all have sinned. The Bible also says that baptism saves you (which Minister Tarr does not believe) and that we are not justified by faith alone (which Minister Tarr does not believe), and that God awards eternal life to every man according to his works (which Minister Tarr does not believe) and that woman will be saved through bearing children (which Minister Tarr does not believe) and that you must eat the body and drink the blood of the Son of Man to have eternal life (which Minister Tarr does not believe); and nowhere does the Bible say that contraception is moral (yet Minister Tarr believes it is) or that altar calls are a good thing (yet Minister Tarr believes they are) or that Wednesday night church meetings are a good thing (but Minister Tarr believes they are), and nowhere in the Bible does it give us a list of which books should be considered the inspired and inerrant Word of God (yet Minister Tarr believes the books in his Bible are indeed the inspired and inerrant Word of God).

In other words, Minister Tarr is trying to hold Catholics to a standard of biblical interpretation that he does not burden himself with - that if something is not directly mentioned in the Bible you can't believe it, and that the words you read in the Bible should be taken exactly as written without considering context or tradition. I will expand on that in a moment when I look at the verses just mentioned. Here's the thing: What is going on in Minister Tarr's presentations, is that he pretends to be comparing Catholic teaching to the Bible, when he is doing nothing of the sort. What he is actually doing is comparing his Baptist spin on Catholic teaching to his own fallible interpretation of the Bible. And guess what?! They don't match! It's amazing how that happens. So let's take a look at these verses.

1) 1 Kings 8:46, "...for there is no one who does not sin..." This is taken from Solomon's prayer at what is, essentially, the dedication of the newly built Temple in Jerusalem. Minister Tarr interprets that as meaning: At that time, and never before that time, and never after that time will there ever be anyone who did not or will not sin. Well, first thing to note is that nowhere does Solomon say, "And there will never be anyone who does not sin." So, Minister Tarr is adding that part to Scripture. Second thing to consider, is that Noah is said to be "blameless in his generation." That seems to be saying that Noah did not sin. Also, Zechariah and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, are said to have walked "in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless," (Luke 1:6). If Noah, or Zechariah, or Elizabeth had sinned, they could not be said to be "blameless," right? If you sin, you do indeed have blame. And, John the Baptist is filled with the Holy Spirit his entire life, even from the womb (Luke 1:15) - would someone filled with the Holy Spirit his entire life have ever sinned? I don't know for sure, but you could make a good argument for him not having sinned.

So, Minister Tarr is coming up with an interpretation which is not only not in the Bible, but is not even implied by the Bible. Furthermore, I find it quite interesting that Minister Tarr has the verse reading: "for there is no one who does not sin" instead of "there is no MAN who does not sin," which is what it says in the original Hebrew and in the King James Version of the Bible. Finally, does Minister Tarr believe this verse applies to Jesus? Or, does he make an exception for Jesus, even though nowhere does the verse make an exception for anyone, at least, according to Minister Tarr's absolutist interpretation?

2) Ecclesiastes 7:20, "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins." This is an awkwardly worded translation and could be interpreted, as written, in one of two ways - either that there is not a righteous man on earth, or that there is not a righteous man on earth who never sins. I believe Minister Tarr was going for the latter interpretation (and, just in case he wasn't, I'll deal with the former interpretation below). Given that, I would say the same thing I said above. Nowhere does this verse say, or even imply, that there will never be a man (or woman) on earth who never sins. And, again, what about Jesus? Wasn't He a righteous man on earth who never sinned?

3) Psalm 14:2-3, "The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together tha have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one." Okay, here Minister Tarr has blundered badly by not considering context. Read Psalm 14 for yourself. There are clearly two groups of people being spoken about here. The first group are those "fools" who say there is no God. Not only are they fools, but they are "evildoers". This group is the "children of men". But then, there is another group spoken of: the generation of the righteous. God refers to them as "My people". So, it is about the first group that the psalm says "all have turned aside" and that "there is none who does good, not even one." So, Minister Tarr might want to read that psalm a little more closely before he claims that it contradicts Catholic teaching. His faulty interpretation of the Word of God contradicts Catholic teaching, but the Word of God itself does not.

4) Romans 3:10-12, "...as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." Okay, here is the "none is righteous, no, not one..." Minister Tarr interprets that as an absolute. Not a single human being has ever been or ever could be righteous. Yet, there is a problem with that interpretation. Scripture mentions righteous folks all over the place in both the Old and New Testaments. Those we've already talked about - Noah, Zechariah, Elizabeth were all called "righteous" by the Word of God. In James it says the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Well, if no one is righteous, no not one, and that is an absolute, then who are these righteous people James is talking about? And in Psalm 14, what about the "generation of the righteous"? Over and over again the Bible mentions the "righteous". Which means, once again, that Minister Tarr's interpretation is in error. Either that, or he believes the Bible is contradicting itself.

And another thing, if you ask Minister Tarr if he is seeking God, what is he going to say? Of course he's seeking God he'll tell you. But, the Bible says, according to Minister Tarr's interpretation, that absolutely no one - not one single person ever on the face of the earth - has sought God or ever will seek God. So, is he seeking God, or is the Bible wrong? Or, possibly, is his absolutist interpretation of the Bible wrong? And, is Minister Tarr saying no one has ever, or will ever, do anything good? But, how can that be when the New Testament mentions in several places about people doing good works? No, his interpretation of these verses is exceedingly flawed and that's because he is not conforming his beliefs to the Bible, rather he is trying to make the Bible conform to his beliefs.

5) Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Again, Minister Tarr interprets the word "all" here to mean absolutely everyone who has ever lived or ever will live, without exception. First point to make is the one I just made above, that an absolute interpretation of these verses leads to the Bible contradicting itself. Which we know cannot happen since God does not contradict Himself.

The second point to consider in regard to his absolutist interpretation of the word "all" as meaning absolutely everyone without exception, is that, according to the context of the passage, Paul is not necessarily referring to individuals here, he is referring to groups. In particular, he is referring to Jews and Greeks and he is saying to the Jews that they are sinners just like the Greeks. We see this very clearly in verse 9, "What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin..."

A third point to consider is whether or not Minister Brady Tarr believes in universal salvation? What am I talking about you ask? Well, if you interpret "all" as an absolute in chapter 3 of Romans, then you must also interpret it as an absolute in chapter 5 of Romans. Let's look at a couple of verses there: "Then as one man's [Adam's] trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's [Jesus'] act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life [salvation] for all men," (Romans 5:18). Minister Tarr would agree that "all" is an absolute in the first half of that verse, but I don't believe he would agree that "all" is an absolute in the second half of that verse, because if he did, then that would mean all men, without exception, are saved. That all men, without exception, are acquitted and receive life...i.e., eternal life. Universal salvation is true, if Minister Tarr's interpretation is true. But Minister Tarr does not believe that. Which means, there is a problem with how he is interpreting these verses from Romans 3.

Furthermore, to show that the Bible itself does not interpret the word "all" as an absolute here in Romans 3 and 5, just look at Romans 5:19 - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous." Verse 19 is simply repeating verse 18. Verse 18: one man's trespass; Verse 19: one man's disobedience. Verse 18: condemnation; Verse 19: made sinners. Verse 18: one man's act of righteousness; Verse 19: one man's obedience. Verse 18: leads to acquittal and life; Verse 19: will be made righteous. And, here's the kicker, in verse 18 it says, "all" men...twice. All men are condemned and all men are acquitted and receive life. But, in verse 19, it says, "many" twice, as in: "many were made sinners" and "many will be made righteous". So, according to the Word of God, "all" is not an absolute in these verses; but, according to the Word of Tarr, "all" is an absolute in these verses. Which do you choose to believe?

6) Galatians 3:21-22, "For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everthing under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." There is absolutely nothing in this passage that contradicts the teaching that Mary was without sin. Scripture did indeed imprison everything under sin. And Jesus saved us from that imprisonment, as He saved Mary from that imprisonment: "...and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior," (Luke 1:47). And, Mary did indeed have faith. Mary, in fact, was the first believer: "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord," (Luke 1:45). So, as with every verse of Scripture, the Catholic says, "Amen! I believe it!"

Closing Comments

Again, please let me know if you are willing to call, email, or text in with questions for my upcoming television series, Balaam's Ride, and also let me know if you have any problems downloading the HTV10 app on your smart TV. I don't have a smart phone, so I don't know if the app can be downloaded onto phones or not.

I hope all of you have a great week!

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