Apologetics for the Masses #346 - An Evangelical Pastor and Mary (Summary)

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The Sinlessness of Mary - A Debate With an Evangelical Pastor (Summary)

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Introduction

Okay, it’s time to start wrapping up this "dialogue" I've been having with Evangelical Pastor Greg Smith. So, in this newsletter, I'm going to begin a process of recapping the dialogue. What I want to do in this recap is point out some of the major contradictions he makes, where his logic breaks down, his inconsistencies, and I want to point out some concepts to you that I have found to be universal among the few thousand Protestants I have dealt with in the last 25 years or so. You need to remember these concepts and use them in your discussions with non-Catholic Christians.

Of course, if Pastor Greg has more to say, I'll pass that along as well, but as I said in the last newsletter, it's time to bring this conversation back to the core, to the essentials, to the nitty gritty - which is...authority.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

First, to begin the recap, how did this conversation get going? Pastor Greg, in response to a newsletter I sent out on “The Sinlessness of Mary,” sent me this message in an email: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This includes Mary. Please stick to the Scriptures, not Catholic dogma.”

He was quoting from Romans 3:23. His contention here is that the word “all” is an absolute. It means absolutely every human being who has ever lived or ever will live. Which means, since Mary is a human being, and “all [human beings] have sinned,” then one must conclude, by Pastor Greg’s logic and interpretative methodology, that Mary has sinned.

On the surface of it, that seems reasonable enough. But, then I asked him a question: “Are you seeking God?” That might seem, at first glance, to be a completely unrelated question in regard to the topic of the sinlessness of Mary, but it is not, as I will demonstrate.

Pastor Greg responded by saying that he is indeed seeking God. So I pointed out to him that the Bible, just a few verses before it says, “All have sinned,” (Rom 3:23), says that “No one” seeks for God (Rom 3:11). If, by Pastor Greg’s interpretative methodology, “all” is an absolute, then, using that same methodology, “no one,” is also an absolute. So, even though the Bible says “no one” seeks God, Pastor Greg said that he seeks God.

When I pointed that out to him, what was his response? He told me that, yes, I was right, and he said, “No one who is an unbeliever seeks God.” Do you see what he did there? Let’s compare:

Word of God: “No one seeks for God.” (Rom 3:11)
Word of Greg: “No one who is an unbeliever seeks God.”

He added to the Word of God. He didn’t just accept it at face value as written. He interpreted the Word of God. In other words, while “all” is an absolute in Pastor Greg’s theology, “no one” is apparently a relative term that refers only to unbelievers. So, if I were to say, “No one was at the office yesterday,” does that mean unbelievers were at the office yesterday? It does in Pastor Greg’s theology. “No one was driving in the snowstorm,” means that unbelievers were driving in the snowstorm, in Pastor Greg’s theology. “No one” = “unbelievers” in Pastor Greg’s theology.

This is one of those principles I want you to be able to recognize, remember, and use: Since each and every Sola Scriptura adherent gives themselves the right to read and interpret Scripture on their own, without being bound to any superior authority in their interpretation of Scripture, then the dogma that we know theoretically as Sola Scriptura, is, in practice, Sola [My Interpretation of] Scriptura.

Principle #1: Sola Scriptura = Sola [My Interpretation of] Scriptura. (And I’ll expand on that in the next newsletter.)

And, a corollary to Principle #1 is this:

Principle #2: Compare what they say a verse or passage of the Bible says, to what is actually written in the Bible. Most of the time, the two don't match.

Now, back to “all” and “no one.” My question about Pastor Greg seeking God is relevant to his argument against the sinlessness of Mary because my question highlights the fact that he is interpreting one verse of Scripture in a certain way - in an absolute fashion - in order to fit his beliefs, but then interpreting a nearby verse of Scripture in quite another way - in a relative way - in order to fit his beliefs. “All” is absolute in its meaning, but “no one” is relative in its meaning.

He has to do that because if he was being consistent in his interpretative methodology, it would result in an inconsistency in his beliefs. So, instead of causing himself a theological problem, he simply changes the way he interprets the Bible from one verse to the next in order to get the Bible to match his beliefs. And, actually, he changes how he interprets the Bible from one part of a verse to the next part of the same verse.

He does that with Romans 5:18-19. Romans 5:18-19, “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

Pastor Greg said that the Apostle Paul “confirms” that Mary sinned when he said, in Romans 5:12, “that all sinned.” Romans 5:12, “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.” Here, again, in Pastor Greg’s theology, “all” is an absolute.

But, what does “all” mean in Rom 5:18? Well, in verse 18, Paul is simply repeating what he said in verse 12. Verse 18: “One man’s trespass;” verse 12: “Sin came into the world through one man.” Verse 18: “Led to condemnation for all men;” verse 12: “death spread to all men.” So, as Paul is essentially repeating in verse 18, what he said in verse 12, then since “all” is an absolute in verse 12, it is an absolute in verse 18.

This is a huge problem for Pastor Greg, though. That’s because, in the second half of verse 18, it says, “so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” If “all” is an absolute in the first half of verse 18, then it needs be an absolute in the 2nd half of verse 18. And, if it is an absolute in the 2nd half of verse 18, then that would mean universal salvation because by Jesus’ act of righteousness, “ALL” men are acquitted and given life (salvation).

But, Pastor Greg doesn’t believe in universal salvation, so he has to interpret that obvious parallel away. How does he do that? With verse 19. “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” “See, John,” he basically says, “verse 19 shows us that the ‘all’ in verse 18 actually means ‘many’ - it is not an absolute.” Well, if that’s the case, then that presents another problem for him. If “all” being led to acquittal and life in verse 18 actually means “many” will be led to acquittal and life (salvation), as it says in the 2nd half of verse 19; then when it says in verse 18 that one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, verse 19 is telling us that it actually means one man’s trespass led to condemnation for “many,” not “all”. In other words, "all" in verse 18 is not an absolute. It actually means "many." So, “all” men being led to condemnation means “many” men sinned, but not necessarily all. That is, if we are being consistent in our interpretation.

To sum all of that up, the more Pastor Greg interprets Scripture, the more inconsistencies it exposes in his theology. “All” is an absolute, except when it means “many.” But, it is always an absolute when applying it to Mary. Even when “all” means “many,” it still means “all” for Mary.

What is happening here is the fruit of another principle that I will give you:

Principle #3: Protestant theology is internally inconsistent. It might be consistent in one or more of its parts, but it is inconsistent between parts.

As the example above demonstrates: When Protestant theology on Mary is considered by itself, in relation to Romans 3:23, 5:12, and 5:18, those verses seem to be saying, at first glance, that “all” have sinned, and it makes sense that Mary is included in “all,” so she must have sinned and the Catholic Church is wrong to say she did not sin.

But, when you bring Rom 3:11 and 5:19 into the mix, and turn from Protestant theology on Mary to Protestant theology on seeking God and on salvation, then the way you interpreted verses 3:23, 5:12, and the first half of 5:18, when applied to Rom 3:11, the second half of Rom 5:18, and Rom 5:19, doesn’t work with your theology. It causes an inconsistency in your theology. So, what do you have to do? You have to add words to Scripture, as Pastor Greg did. You have to interpret the exact same word one way in this verse and another way in that verse, as Pastor Greg did. You even have to interpret the very same word one way in the 1st half of a verse, and interpret it in another way in the 2nd half of that same verse, as Pastor Greg did. In other words, you have to twist Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16) to get it to fit your theology.

(To be continued...)

Closing Comments

I hope everyone has a truly holy week! I am going to try and get the next newsletter out before Friday, but if not, I'll get it out the following week.

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